Adaptogens: The great rejuvenators with David Winston

Sebastian (0:1.922)

Hello everybody, great to be back with you. I'm very pleased to be here today with David Winston, who doesn't need any introduction at all. But for those of you who've not come across David, he's a great herbalist, educator, and has got a long background in herbalism from the North American tradition all the way through to China and India. And has been a founder of the American Herbalist Guild.

and also with Herbalist and Alchemist. And it's great to have you with us today, David.

David Winston (0:35.726)

d studying herbal medicine in: 1969

Sebastian (1:4.162)

started to study herbalism in: 1969

And so we're going to explore what an adaptogen is, where they come from, how they work, what are some of the issues with them. And I know you have spent some time really diving in deeply to explore adaptogens, David, and you've written a great book on the subject. And so let's just go for it.

What is an adaptogen and why are they so special? They seem to sort of captured the herbalist zeitgeist as such. And so what is so special about them and what aren't they?

David Winston (2:15.618)

Well, I think.

There's a couple ways I could answer that question. But let's go back in time. Let's talk a little bit about the history. So when we look at all the world's great herbal traditions, when we're looking at TCM, traditional Chinese medicine, or Ayurveda, or Yunani-TIB, or Campo, or Jammu, or Siddha, or even physiomedicalism that came from the US and then found a really lasting place in the UK.

they always have had this concept that there were certain or certain herbs that were really nourishing uh... for health promoting and these things were given various names so in traditional chinese medicine you have kidney yang tonics you have spleen cheat on xu have uh... sheer blood tonics uh... and in arivedo you have the resign as but and so that this idea of these great tonic herbs

goes throughout herbal history. That is not a new phenomenon. But the history of adaptogens doesn't come from herbal medicine at all. And in fact, we can kind of in some ways it is because of World War II that the research on adaptogens starts. And during World War II, we know that you know, you had soldiers fighting for liberty into

sort of clear fascism out of Europe and so a lot of the soldiers were being given amphetamines. They were given stimulants so that they could not, you know, they could keep functioning and not sleep and be aggressive and all those sort of things. The problem is long-term use of amphetamines has serious drawbacks among other little things like shortening your overall lifespan, they're highly addictive, etc.

David Winston (4:10.560)

And so in: 1947

And initially he starts looking at pharmaceuticals that can do this. And that path kind of runs into a dead end. Soon he is joined by another researcher who is now considered the father of adaptogens, the father of adaptogenic research, and his name is Israel Breckman. And they turn the research from pharmaceuticals to herbs. And initially they start looking at one herb, and that is Asian ginseng. Asian ginseng doesn't grow in the old Soviet Union.

And even though the Soviets were a socialist republic and the Chinese were a socialist republic, you would have assumed at the time they were buddies. They were not. were not the two largest standing armies in the world or on each other's borders. The last thing the Soviets wanted to do was to have to pay the Chinese for Chinese ginseng. The Chinese wouldn't take rubles because rubles were worthless. They would only take Western dollars.

And so the Soviets started looking for plants that grew within the old Soviet Union that were plentiful. they focused in, Breckman focused in on a specific plant that is known as the Lutherococcus centicosus, although in China it's still called a Cantopanax centicosus. It's a botanical disagreement.

ion on this plant came out in: 1961

David Winston (6:27.270)

Dr. Breckman and Dr. Dardomoff propose the first definition of this idea of there's this class of herbs that has rather extraordinary effects and they name them adaptogens. So this does not come out of the herbal world. This does not come out of herbal research. This comes out of purely Soviet scientific research looking for substances that again enhance overall health.

daptogens, which comes out in: 1969

regardless of the stressor. So whether it is psychological stress, physiological stress, temperature, noise, excessive work, whatever, it helps the body to respond more appropriately to that stress and with less of a negative effect on the body. Thirdly, these substances have a systemic amphoteric effect or normalizing effect on overall body function.

which is not to say that every adaptogen does that for every system in the body, but in general. So that's the initial definition, which is the problem with that definition is that it is so nonspecific that many herbs that are not really adaptogens that we know to be adaptogens today actually will fit into that initial definition. The problem is that a lot of people, both in the herbal community and the Western research community, certainly in the popular press,

are still using this original definition of an adaptogen, even though it is now 55 years later.

David Winston (8:31.734)

And there has been significantly more research showing us what is and is not an adaptogen. So in those intervening 55 years, Dr. Breckman, later followed by Dr. Pinozian, who's probably the best known researcher of adaptogens today, they start looking at adaptogens and trying to understand what is the underlying mechanism? What are these things actually doing?

And in the late: 1990

When I was in university, you know, the endocrine system was, you know, the pineal glands, the adrenal gland, the, you know, aspects of the pancreas, et cetera. you know, in the last 30 years, we've come to understand that there's a gut brain, the enteric brain, which has endocrine, significant endocrine function. The intestinal microbiome has endocrine function. The heart has endocrine function. Bones have endocrine function. So we have the HPA axis was the interface between endocrine function

nervous system function a great deal of immune function as well as digestive function male and female reproductive function etc so this is this interface in the body between all of these various systems so adaptogens work either via the hpa axis or and or the sas the sympatho adrenal system which is your fight-or-flight mechanism i would actually put it to you i would say that

the chances are because the SAS and the HP axis are so intertwined, the reality is probably most, if not all, adaptions actually work on both, but they have to work on one or the other. And so now, in addition to that original definition of these three simple things, an ERB has to work through the HPA axis and or the SAS in order to actually be considered an adaptogen. Then,

David Winston (: 10:57

You mentioned that I've done a lot of work on adaptogens and of course I published the first book on adaptogens and that originally came out in 2007. And I just missed it because in 2008, all of a sudden, there's a whole bunch more research on adaptogens and this research is from about 2008 to about 2012 where they start to see that adaptogens, yes, they're working on the HPA axis and or the SAS.

but they are also working on a cellular level. And what they are doing is they are upregulating what are known as molecular chaperones. And these includes compounds like heat shock proteins, a forkhead protein called Foxo, nitric oxide, neuropeptide Y. And so now we understand that in order for something to be an adaptogen, it meets those first three parameters.

It has to work on the HPA axis and or SAS and it has to basically work on a cellular level by up regulating these molecular chaperones. And you say, well, what's that about? So these molecular chaperones are secreted when you're under stress and they're your body's natural way of trying to protect you from the stressor. And so these molecular chaperones,

act sort of as a eustressor. So with an adaptogen, when you take an adaptogen, it's a little bit like taking a stress vaccine. As long as you're taking the adaptogen, it tells the body stress is coming, it increases production of these compounds, and your body reacts more appropriately to stress. So give you some examples like heat shock proteins help correct three-dimensional folding of proteins. know, misfolded proteins are a major source

of all sorts of problems including cancers and autoimmune disease. They prevent aggregation of misfolded proteins and even cooler, they help to assist in the refolding of misfolded proteins. And to be honest with you, if you ask me like, how do they do that? I'm not actually sure exactly how it does that, but they do. The FOXO, the 4-KED protein enhances synthesis of

David Winston (: 13:20

Proteins that inhibit the effects of stress helps detoxify cells. They enhance longevity at least in animal studies Nitric oxide helps inhibit stress response and down regulate stress induced activation of the immune system the nervous system and endocrine system and Then neuropeptide Y is a neurotransmitter that reduces anxiety reduces pain

inhibits addiction, helps to lower blood pressure, and most importantly, reduces excessive cortisol release. so adaptogens also on a cellular level help prevent cortisol-induced mitochondrial dysfunction. And so the mitochondria, which of course I sort of think of them as the engines of our cells, and that's one of the reasons adaptogens can be so useful for conditions like chronic fatigue immune deficiency syndrome, which in the UK you call, I think,

myalgic encephalitis. They are so useful for things like fibromyalgia, because I see those, know, chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia sort of two signs of the same coin. And so that's what adaptogens are doing. And that is the definition of an adaptogen. In order to be an adaptogen, it has to tick all those boxes. And the reality is, there are very few herbs that we actually know fit that parameter.

the first edition came out in: 2007

Sebastian (15:9.890)

You

David Winston (: 15:15

quote unquote antioxidant and anti-inflammatory activity and there's a reason I say quote unquote but they are most certainly not adaptogens.

Sebastian (: 15:25

Well, that was a fascinating summary of what an adaptogen is. I think I just about managed to keep up there. They're so nonspecific. You know, that's why I'm wondering if it's, you know, is it a meaningful term? And I know that adaptogens have come in for some criticism from some quarters because of their lack of specificity in a way. How do you think that fits, given this new research that's come out over the last, you know, 20 or so years that really shows the sort of multi-target?

impact they have on the health of the body.

David Winston (: 15:58

well if we are looking at the actual research and did the real definition of what adapted gene is it's actually not nonspecific at all it's actually quite specific is to what is an adaptogen the problem is the term has been used so uh... promiscuously that it loses meaning so yeah everybody saying you know not only are cranberries people said cranberries are adapted gene and

Oh my God, know, donkui is an adaptogen and processed remani is an adaptogen and cannabis is an adaptogen. None of those herbs are adaptogens. And so if we use the word, the terminology in the way that science has shown us is that is valid, then it is not a non-specific term. The fact that it has broad ranging effects. Well,

Sebastian (: 16:34

All right.

David Winston (: 16:52

That is wonderful. mean, the fact that the matter is it has broad ranging positive effects. I think that that's fantastic. We live in an incredibly stressful world. And I would say I can't speak to the UK. It's been a while since I've been over. But in the US, you know, for a country that is not actively at war, I can't think of too many places that are more stressful.

than here, whether it's politics, it's climate disasters. mean, it's just a stressful world. we know for a fact that stress has, short-term stress is fine, but chronic long-term stress is part of this whole process, is known as inflammation aging, which has to do with loss of blood sugar regulation and

chronic stress and chronic inflammation that really is sort of the progenitor of virtually all chronic degenerative disease that we are heir to. having something that can help us and understand adaptogens first off are not a panacea. They are not a one size fits all phenomenon. will say, know, when I for a long time I came over to the UK and taught virtually every single year and it was great. love, I love

coming over to the UK, but there was a period of time where like Eleuthero was the adaptogen. And in many of the schools, many of which don't exist anymore, at one point there was at least five degree programs or six. I think there's now one possibly, I could be wrong about that. But for most of those degree programs, they would give them a sheet of herbs and it was like, here are all your nerveins or nerve vines, I should say. And here are your diaphoretics. And it was like, you

You need an adaptogen, him a Luthero. A Luthero is one of the mildest, a Luthero is not a strong nourishing adaptogen. And so for the average person, if you're 15 to 35, sure, fine. But if you have somebody who has serious illness, that's not the one you want. So number one, they're not a one size fits all phenomenon. You need to understand that adaptogens, like anything else, have what I call personalities. There are adaptogens that are stimulating, there are adaptogens that are.

David Winston (: 19:20

There are adaptogens that are heating. are adaptogens that are cooling. There are adaptogens that are drying. Adaptogens that are moistening. Some are deeply nourishing. Some are not. And so number one, you have to learn the herbs. You have to learn them in their individuality so you can understand, does this herb make sense for this person I want to give it to? For our listeners, one of the things I always tell my students in my two-year herb studies program, I say to them, how many of you want to be good herbivores? And everybody raises their hand. And they say, wrong answer.

If going to be an herbalist, truth is, this is true for anything you do, but when other people's health is on the line, if you're going to be an herbalist, don't bother being just good, be great. And when I say be great, I don't mean thinking, oh, I'm so great. That's egotistical. But doing your best to be the best and to help people to the best of your ability at every opportunity and to continue to learn, to continue to grow, be open to the possibility that everything you believe is true is subject to change.

Keep that open mind. Those are the of the parameters for growth and to be great, you have to keep growing. You have to keep changing and you have to keep learning, especially from your errors, from your mistakes. And no matter who we are, we're going to make some mistakes. so adaptogens, as I said, are not a panacea. We have to understand that everybody doesn't need an adaptogen and adaptogens are not a replacement for the foundations of health.

Sebastian (: 20:30

Thank

David Winston (: 20:44

You know, yeah, for short term, you have a new baby in the house, you just passed the bar exam and you're, you knew your law firm expects you to work 70 hours a week. You're in university and you've got finals and you're pulling all nighters. Yeah, you could take some adaptogens to kind of help you get through that. But adaptogens don't make up for the fact that you are chronically getting a lack of either amount or quality of sleep. They don't make up for a

poor diet, they don't make up for the fact you're smoking cigarettes or other poor lifestyle choices. They don't make up for the fact that you're not taking advantage of learning some stress reduction techniques. So we still need to pay attention to the foundations of health. But when we are doing those good things for ourselves, hopefully many, if not most of those things, sometimes we still need more. Sometimes that is not enough. And that's where adaptogens can be

so useful because so many of us are experiencing various types of stressors, whether it be endocrine disruption from the environment and microplastics and nanoplastics, whether it be stress at work, stress in our lifestyle, stress in our relationships, whether it be that we live in a country that might elect a wannabe dictator in a week.

Who knows? We all are sort of dealing with a wide range of stressors. And so something that can help us with that and to help to re-regulate, again, the HPA axis, endocrine function, immune function, nervous system function, digestive function, reproductive function, cardiovascular function, what's not to like?

Sebastian (: 22:40

I mean, they do sound like panaceas, though, don't they? That's the thing. You can see how they've become sort of overinflated in their ability. But I love the way there that you drew us back to the fact that they've got specific characters and personalities, which is therefore a particular sort of energetic profile, and that there are certain times and places and people that they should be should be used in. And so maybe we should dive into...

some of the species and some of your favourite adaptogens, particularly, maybe then later on we'll look at some of the ones which are not. But, you know, it sounds like you've got a very clear view after much research and clinical experience. So what are some of your favourite ones? I'd love to explore if we could veer into what adaptogens are available in Europe and America locally as well as some of our famous Indian and Chinese friends.

David Winston (: 23:34

Well, one of the things I will say is there are a lot more adaptogens that are coming from China in India than anywhere else. And one of the reasons is there you have two traditional systems of medicine that had this history of looking for mild, gentle tonic plants that could be taken long-term to help prevent disease, where in the Western tradition, that was not really a main focus.

Here in the US we had what I like to call the purge and puke him and bleed him school of medicine Which was basically the more they could eliminate waste via every orifice you possess plus a few they created the better you were and so in a tradition that is that heroic They're not looking for gentle tonic remedies. They're looking for things that excite, you know significant evacuations either through the bowels or sweating or salivation or urination or vomiting

And so there wasn't that sort of viewpoint of looking for these herbs. It doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means in some cases they may not have been recognized. So when we come to adaptogens, in my book what I did is I divided them. This is somewhat arbitrarily my idea, but there are basically what I call well-researched adaptogens where there is significant human research showing that these plants

or do fit the parameters of what I described as an adaptogen and have activity. And there's only nine of them. Then there's a second group of verbs that I call probable adaptogens. And there's about six of those. And here there is research that leads me to believe that these are adaptogens for sure, but there's not much new way of human research. It's mostly animal research. And so

It's more of an issue of lack of research than that the herbs don't have a certain effect. And then there's a third category of at least a dozen herbs that I call possible adaptogens. Many of these are in the popular mind are thought of as adaptogens, but the reality is there's almost no evidence that they are. And this includes things like reishi mushroom, for instance, where there, if it is an adaptogen, it's an extremely mild one.

David Winston (: 25:54

And there's virtually no evidence that it indeed is. There's lots of research about Ganoderma, Rishi, being a really useful immune amphoteric, but adaptogen, that's a separate thing. So let's talk about that first group of herbs, the well-researched adaptogen. So we've already mentioned two of them. We have Asian ginseng, and regardless of whether it is coming from China or Korea, so you have Korean ginseng,

Chinese ginseng, they're the same plant, just grown in two different places. Honestly, if I had my druthers, I think quality control is better in South Korea than it is in China. And so I'd probably go there first. And you have two basic forms. There's different varieties, but you have red and white. And white, they simply take the root when it's mature, usually at least seven years old. They clean it, take off the little rootlets, and then dry it. That's white ginseng.

Red ginseng is that same root that it is steamed and it turns red with a glassy fracture. And it is the most probably the most stimulating of all and the most heating of all adaptogens. So we have red ginseng. Well, we have Asian ginseng, red, white. And then of course, the two locations it's primarily grown is South Korea. They've got North Korea too, but it's not available here and China. Then I mentioned Oluthoro.

And a Luthero, Lutherococcus centicosus is a well-researched adaptogen, but as I said before, it is very mild and I don't use it for severe illness at all. In addition to that, we have a couple of Ayurvedic herbs. We have ashwagandha, which has become extremely popular over the last maybe five years. I mean, it went from being unknown to all of sudden it's now a

quote unquote, herbal superstar. And ashwagandha is the root of a plant in the nightshade family. I remember when I first started hearing about ashwagandha, this would be probably 40 years ago, and I was really iffy because a lot of the books from India, the ones that are translated into English, talk about it being an acro-narcotic poison. And when I read that, I'm thinking, wait a minute, this is a plant in the nightshade family. They're calling it an acro-narcotic poison. And they're saying it's a, you know, at that point, a racina.

David Winston (: 28:19

That seemed really peculiar to me. Of course, what I later found out is it was the leaves that they were really referring to as the quote unquote, acro-narcotic poison. The leaves contain compounds that the roots do not. We also have from...

David Winston (: 28:40

Other plants like Shizandra, Uetsu, which is five-flavor fruit from China. We have American ginseng, which is the American species of Panax, which is Panax quinquefolius. We have a Russian plant called Raponticum, also known as Lutia or Marrowroot, which is in the Russian pharmacopeia as an adaptogen.

And we have, let's see, we have cordyceps, the caterpillar fungus, which is the only mushroom. And mushrooms right now, every mushroom out there that's medicinal is being called an adaptogen. But the only one that actually has any evidence that's an adaptogen is cordyceps, the caterpillar fungus. And we can talk more about cordyceps. Cordyceps gets a little complicated. There's actually three different things out there that are being sort of

promoted as cordyceps and two of them are and one of them is a totally unrelated species. It isn't cordyceps at all, but it can be sold as cordyceps. And let me think, what am I missing? I think that's about seven. Rhodiola, yep, thank you. And Rhodiola, of course, comes from Scandinavia, Northern Europe.

Sebastian (: 29:54

uh, rhodiola, rhodiola.

David Winston (30:4.962)

And rhodiola is certainly an adaptogen. It has a fairly long history of use up in Scandinavia. But like the other adaptogens, it very much has a personality. And that personality is that rhodiola is not a nourishing adaptogen at all, but it is quite stimulating adaptogen. So for instance, I would say to somebody, you know, a lot of times people hear, oh, rhodiola is good for you. Well, if you're the kind of person

that if you like say, yeah, I can't have even a little tiny piece of chocolate after lunch, I can't sleep at night. You don't want to give that person rhodiola because they'll be up all night long. Whereas red ginseng is very stimulating. It is also deeply nourishing. Rhodiola is just stimulating. Also, rhodiola is extremely drying. So you have any level of yin deficiency, dry mouth, dry skin, dry eyes, dry cough.

Dry sticky mucus lack of synovial fluid in the joints vaginal dryness rhodiola can make it worse significantly worse So that was rhodiola and I still think I am missing something

Sebastian (: 31:13

something like Tulsi or Amla

David Winston (: 31:19

No, almost on

Sebastian (: 31:20

not allowing those. Licorice? I said amla, tulsi or licorice? Not allowing those in either David, it's very strict.

David Winston (: 31:23

What did you just say?

David Winston (: 31:28

No.

David Winston (: 31:32

Now, well anyway, so that is the majority of the eight or nine herbs. Oh, oh, I know what it is. Shilajit.

Sebastian (: 31:41

Oh, you count that as a hub.

David Winston (: 31:43

Shiloh Jesus!

Well, in Chinese medicine, you know, dried insects are herbs. yeah, Shilajit, which is a herbal mineral excretion from rocks, which is both it's both plant and mineral based, is is fairly well researched adaptogen. That's the last of those. So those are the nine herbs that are considered to be I would consider well researched adaptogens. Then

I will mention that we have an additional, as I said, five that are what I would call probable adaptogens. And that includes two very prominent agri-Vedic herbs, one being holy basil, which you just mentioned, and the other one being chitavery. All right. And those, again, I think it's just, there's nothing that a few more human research studies wouldn't say, okay, kind of pushes it over the top to say that they are well-researched adaptogens. The reality is,

most of the research on both of those is animal research when it comes to adaptogen research. The other three or four plants in that category are Chinese herbs, what the Chinese call kidney yang tonics. The Chinese kidney embodies also what we would call the sort of adrenal glands and male and female reproductive function. And so you have herbs like soyang and rukongrong.

and Mirinda root, all of which are kidney yang tonics that show sort of ability to modulate hormones and stress hormones and things like that. So those are the sort of herbs that I would put into the categories of well-researched adaptogens and probable adaptogens. Some of the other herbs you mentioned, such as licorice.

David Winston (: 33:34

Licorice is in the category of what I would call a possible adaptogen, although the reality is if licorice is an adaptogen, it is the most atypical adaptogen we have because it's unlike any other adaptogen. Whereas all adaptogens help reduce excessive cortisol production, licorice, especially if there is really low cortisol, will increase cortisol production. So licorice is almost in a class of its own. It does things that

I don't know of any other plant that can do what licorice can do.

Sebastian (34:9.826)

And this dosage is very narrow in a way, think, as well, potentially with this non-toxic idea with the original definition, I think that would be interesting to explore. you know, use it at the right dose, of course, it's fine. But we know that if you take more than five to 10 grams a day for a long period of time, it can put blood pressure up in some people's content. What's interesting, you know, really insightful, David, and really interesting. I'd really love your discipline about...

Defining what is an adaptogen and also the as I said before the character that you're putting onto it and this this energetics One thing that you know strikes me, you know, not just from hearing it But when you're reading about adaptions a lot of these plants grow in extreme places, don't they they are not your average? Not necessarily there is an average climate, but they grow at the edges of habitable environments often at very high altitudes where there's low oxygen high radiation

or they grow where it's very dry, very cold, very hot. So they have this... they're naturally adapting to the environment. mean, all plants are doing that anyway, but these plants seem to have a particular feature of that. Because of the sustainability issues around certain herbs, like rhodiola that's gone onto the CITES list, panic ginseng that often requires deforestation because of its growing area and its length of time.

What do you think some of the things we can do as a community to make sure we use these plants with respect to their preciousness and their value that they serve in their own ecosystem and also to our own health, given that we seem to need them and the public are demanding them and herbalists are keen on using them? In terms of, I don't know, respecting the amount of dose we're using, ensuring there's any certifications, what are some of the things you do to make sure that...

using good stuff.

David Winston (36:8.866)

Well, I think first off and most important is learn to understand the plants and where they're really appropriate. So do we need young men who already have a scarlet tea on their forehead taking red ginseng? I can't think of any 18 year old that needs to be taking red ginseng. And so number one, let's use them appropriately. So let's stop it. We do not need red ginseng in energy drinks.

uh... you know let's let's and by the way the amount in there is usually so miniscule that is not doing anything although the amount over you know along you know years and years of production for a product could be quite a lot so let's use these things in appropriate ways in the appropriate person so again if we have somebody for instance with rodeo live already mentioned that rodeo ladies can be very overstimulating very drawing

Number one, we don't want to be using it just as a, everybody take rhodiola. No, there are certain people where rhodiola could be really useful, but let's learn to use these things in the person, in the situation where they're actually appropriate. That's number one. Number two, with something like rhodiola, in Canada, they are growing rhodiola on a commercial scale.

and the product that they're growing is actually quite good. would also point out that much of the rhodiola in the marketplace, and yes, it has been added to the CITES list, most of the rhodiola, which is also supposed to be rhodiola rosea, virtually none of it is rhodiola rosea. Almost all the rhodiola is coming out of China, and rhodiola rosea, for the most part, doesn't grow in China, to a small degree, but if there's any left in China, I'd be really surprised. And so what you have is, and this is something I've noticed

herbalists have a tendency to do, we tend to be lumpers. And botanically speaking, you have what are called lumpers and splitters. There's people who want to put everything with into a certain genus and people who want to, you know, or certain species and, you know, and people who want to sort of split them all out. Well, the reality is just because a plant is related to another plant, just because they are in the same genus, just because you have rhodiola rosea and rhodiola sacralensis,

David Winston (: 38:27

doesn't mean they're the same. Now in some cases, if we're talking about a plant like Ibrite, Euphrasia, I've never found a species of Ibrite that didn't have the exact same activity. They all seem to be synonymous. But with many plants, that is not true. And so the rhodiola rosea not only contains the compounds called solidricides, which are considered to be active compounds, they also contain a class of chemical called rosavins, which are not found in any of the other rhodiola species.

Nor is the essential oil monoterpene compounds that give rhodiola its rose odor, smells like rose geranium. That's not found in any of the other ones either. So we know right off the bat chemically they are different. And almost all most of the research on rhodiola has been done on rhodiola rosea. We cannot assume that these other species have biological equivalents. They might, but in my personal experience they don't.

So number one, we need to make sure that we have the right plant. Let's see, number one, can we grow it? And if we grow it, can we grow it in a way that is sustainable, that makes sense, and produces an effective product? Raponticum, which is a plant that grows up in Siberia, interestingly enough, it's not a hard plant to grow.

Although it's been over harvested in Siberia, it's not a hard plant to grow, but the plants that people have grown do not seem to have the same activity as the Russian stuff that comes out of the wild. And in fact, I've even seen some studies showing that some of the stuff that was actually grown in the same area, but intentionally grown, didn't have the same activity. So there are some plants we may just have to say, you know what, even though there's a limited number of these plants, maybe certain plants

We should just say we're not going to use those anymore simply because there is no sustainable way to grow them. Ginseng, Asian ginseng, both in Korea and China, I mean, they know how to grow it. I mean, they've got it down. The American ginseng is grown here in the United States, although I will point out that the American ginseng grown in the U.S. in Wisconsin, which is the sort of capital of ginseng growing, which has grown under artificial shade.

David Winston (: 40:52

and they use lots of fungicides and herbicides, things like that, is an inferior product. So what some people are now doing here in the US is they're doing what's called organic woods grown ginseng. It's being grown in its normal habitat. There's no forest clearing because this is a forest plant. So you're growing it in its natural habitat and you're growing it with its normal stressors, but you're intentionally cultivating it. Some plants,

like Shizandra are easy to grow. Shizandra, I have Shizandra growing here at my house. Shizandra doesn't require a really unique environment. It likes cold for sure, but as long as you have decently cold winters, Shizandra will do very nicely. And then we have some of our probable adaptogens like Holy Basil.

which is extremely easy to grow, I will warn people. I don't know if this happened in the UK, but here in the US, by accident, a large herb company, seed company, started selling what they thought was holy basil, and it turned out to be African basil. So here in the US, if you have a holy basil that it dies back when it gets cold and then grows back the next year from seed, that's not actually holy basil, that's African basil.

And again, there's no evidence that that African basil has the same activity as the holy basil. But holy basil, the true holy basil is very easy to grow. And I have it growing here at my house. Chitavery has been over-harvested, but chitavery is not terribly difficult to grow. And so there are numerous plants that we can learn to cultivate. And of course, the ideal would be

to cultivate them in a sustainable manner by organic agriculture so that we have the plants we want and need, but we are not putting the native plants at risk. Now, there are some plants like Olithoro, which covers millions of acres. And so over-harvesting is probably not terribly, not a big issue.

David Winston (: 43:13

at this point. a very common plant. It grows wild, but it too could be cultivated if necessary. And as adaptogens become more popular, and I do not think that their popularity is going to wane, if we can again use them appropriately, get to understand their personality when they're appropriate for a given situation in a specific person, and be aware that there are

sustainable ways to grow most of these plants, I think we can have our adaptogens and take them too.

Sebastian (: 43:49

Nice, thank you David, I like that. And I mean getting back to that, should we just explore for a few minutes, you know, some of the adaptogens we've talked about and how you use them. I'd love to just hear some of your clinical experience. I mean, what should we choose? There's a sort of a handy chug.

David Winston (44:6.158)

Let me start off by talking about what I call the ginseng scale. The ginseng scale are all related plants, even though Eleuthero, as I said, is not true ginseng. When we talk about Eleuthero, I think of Eleuthero, as I said, as a very mild non-stimulating adaptogen. In my mind, it is most appropriate for people who are 15 to 35. They have all their vital energy.

All right, they're not really feeling the effects of age, but they're going through a period of time that is stressful for a period of time, as we said before, finals at university, a new job where the expectations are really high, maybe new baby in the house, people aren't getting enough sleep, whatever, where you take something like that for a period of time to help you get through that difficult time. All right.

So that would be something like a Luthero. Next in the scale of strength, we have American ginseng, that's Panax quinquefolius. And I think of American ginseng being most useful for people who are on average 40 to 60 years old. And they have started to notice, I have a friend, Russell, and when we were in our 20s, Russell came up with this saying, I don't know if he made it up or heard it someplace, but he said, when you're a teenager, you're immortal.

when you are you're in your twenties you're a superhero in your thirties you become mortal and if forty the warranty wears off and the first thing that goes to the eyes well there was some real truth to this this idea and so you know forty to sixty and all the sudden you notice that when you travel over you know overseas

And it used to be that, you know, yeah, you might miss a night of sleep, but you were up and running the next morning, no problem. And now, oh my goodness, you feel it. Even the time change twice a year, you feel it more than you used to. Or you're noticing that you, maybe, you know, it's harder to stay up. Or if you have a bad night and you don't sleep well, you know, you used to be able to push through it the next day. And now, the only way you're getting through it is endless cups of coffee or tea or, you know, something like that.

David Winston (: 46:25

So you're starting to feel the effects of aging and that's where I use American ginseng. It's also somewhat moistening. So also if there's signs of dryness. Now that is not to say if I have a young woman with chronic fatigue, immune deficiency syndrome, who like the big event of the day is getting out of bed, going to the bathroom and then getting back into bed that I might not use American ginseng and somebody who's 24.

But in general, it's more for that slightly older population, what I guess is usually called middle age, where you're starting to notice the effects of age. White Asian ginseng I use for people more who are, say, 50 to 70. They're feeling the effects of aging much more significantly. It is also a moistening. And I would also point out that both American ginseng and all the Asian ginsengs also act as what are called immune amphoterics.

helping to re-regulate the immune system, whether it's hyperactive, like as in allergies, hypoactive as in, you know, somebody who's constantly getting colds or somebody with cancer or some, not that you're treating a cancer, but somebody with cancer and immune suppression or somebody with chronic Lyme disease with immune suppression or somebody who has both a hypo and hyperactive immune function at the same time.

which is what you see in most autoimmune diseases where you have a prematurely aged immune system, which with a loss of self regulatory capacity. now the immune system is attacking self antigen tissue in the body. And so not all adaptogens are immune amphoterics, but these are, all right. So the American ginseng and both Asian ginsengs. And then I use red ginseng.

mostly for people who are 70 and older. Now again, I have somebody who's really depleted and cold. I might use it in somebody much younger, but this is for the person. And I don't know, in the UK, I'm not sure the analogy, you can tell me the analogy, but here in the United States, a lot of older folks retire to Florida or to Phoenix and where it's really warm in the winter time.

David Winston (: 48:48

This is the person you go to visit your grandparent and it's in the middle of the summer in Florida and it's incredibly hot. You go into their apartment and they don't have the air conditioning on. They have the heat on and they're wearing three sweaters and they're still cold. And it's like a sauna in there. This person has lost their vital energy. They have impaired circulation, maybe a little bit of congestive heart failure. And that's where we're using regency. And for that person,

Instead of being overstimulating, it helps give them energy. I would also, though, point out that interestingly enough, for an adult with something like ADHD, red ginseng will often have the same effect on that person that something like Adderall has in people. know, for those people, Adderall, which is a stimulant, helps calm people down with ADHD.

it will often do the same thing for adults with ADHD as well. So that's sort of like the sort of ginseng range of what we'll call the ginsengs. Then you look at something like ashwagandha, and ashwagandha is a calming adaptogen. Now that doesn't mean that out of a hundred people, there may not be one or two who get stimulated by ashwagandha, but that is not the normal response. Idiosyncratic reactions can happen with anything

to anyone. instance, burdock root, which is one of the most benign herbs out there, which is not an adaptogen, it makes me vomit, whether I have it as a tincture or a tea. And I've tried it multiple times just to see. I have no idea. It's not like I think it tastes bad or anything like that. It's an idiosyncratic reaction. So idiosyncratic reactions can happen with anything, any medication, any pharmaceutical, any cosmetic, any food, any herb.

But barring that, ashwagandha is generally a calming adaptogen. It has anxiolytic effects. It certainly has a long history of use for enhancing male reproductive function, but over last 20 years, lots of studies showing that it does the exact same things for women. And I would point out that in my opinion, there are no men's herbs or women's herbs. Herbs are genderless. They'll affect

David Winston (51:7.458)

the analogous tissue in whatever person, regardless of gender, that is taking it. Ashwagandha also has antispasmodic activity and I use ashwagandha frequently for treating fibromyalgia. And I don't, as an herbalist, I don't use simples. I don't give single herbs. You know, I treat complex people with very complex problems. One herb's not going to do that. So I create

formulas for each of my patients. But one of the herbs I like to use along with several other herbs is ashwagandha for treating fibromyalgia pain. It helps with the spasm, the pain, and ashwagandha is also an immune amphoteric. And in my opinion, there is a strong aspect of autoimmunity in fibromyalgia as well as sleep dysregulation. Shizandra is another

calming adaptogen. And again, is there a few people out there who get stimulated by Shizandra? Yeah, a few. I've seen it, but very, very rare. Both human and animal research showing again it has anxiolytic activity. Shizandra, five-flavor fruit, you know, and all five flavors, Chinese medicine flavors are detectable, but the predominant flavors are sour and turpentine. Shizandra,

is used for a number of things. First off, it has a profound anti-inflammatory activity. And again, I'm using air quotes. Because herbal anti-inflammatories do not work like pharmaceutical anti-inflammatories. So when we use that, borrow that terminology, anti-inflammatory, anti-viral, antioxidant, and apply them to herbs, they don't, in none of those cases, do they actually mean what they mean when we're talking about a pharmaceutical agent? They are, and which is one of the reasons

that herbal anti-inflammatories don't cause all of the problems that pharmaceutical anti-inflammatories do. Pharmaceutical anti-inflammatories shut down virtually the entire process of inflammation. Well, the only problem is we need some of those processes of inflammation for our cells to function. Herbs are more selective in what they do. They're also less likely to cause problems in many cases. So, Shazandra is used to

David Winston (: 53:33

When you have somebody who has their kidneys aren't grasping the lung chi, it has significant anti-asthmatic activity, a wonderful herb for asthma. It is also used for if you have a leaky gingate. And you know what they say, it don't mean a thing if you don't got the ging. Jing is the life force in Chinese medicine. It's associated with seminal fluid in men and like a nonspecific vaginal discharge in women or frequent urination.

And so a leaky gingate is urinary frequency, urinary incontinence. also could be fecal incontinence, premature ejaculation, things like that. And so it helps to estrange that leaky gingate. So it is drying, although nowhere near as drying as rhodiola. All right. But you still have to be aware that if you have somebody with lot of symptoms of dryness, Shazandra may or may not be the most appropriate herb for them.

Shizandra also is a major hepatoprotective herb, right up there with turmeric and milk thistle. And so you can use it to help prevent non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, and you can use it to help protect against damage from viruses such as hep A, B, or C. You can use it to protect against environmental pollutants which cause hepatotoxicity.

So it is a rather remarkable herb. again, I'm just a couple of little tidbits here. There's so much more. If we talk about, let me see, what haven't I spoken about? Well, let's just talk about cordyceps for a minute, because I did mention that earlier. Cordyceps is really interesting. So the actual fruiting body, which is from Ophiocordyceps sinensis, is a caterpillar of the ghost moth. And there are people.

who are mostly Tibetans and from Nepal, who walk around in the mountains at the right time of year looking for these little tiny mushrooms, which is connected to the fruiting body, which is basically the caterpillar, which has been totally taken over by the mushroom, and collect them. Well, currently, last I heard, the cost for a kilo of the Ophiocordyceps sinensis was $50,000. So I don't know.

David Winston (: 55:58

30,000 pounds, 35,000 pounds for a kilo. I don't know too many people who can afford that. That's like insane amount of money. I mean, once upon a time they were, you know, I used to think it was crazy when they were $7,000 a kilo. I should have bought it then. Anyway, that's what's traditionally been used and it has always been a precious earth. For instance, emperors in China would be served

Sebastian (: 56:17

Ha

David Winston (: 56:27

a dish with a duck stuffed with cordyceps fungus. I'm sure even then that was a very expensive dish. And you have to be careful if you actually buy the fruiting bodies. One of the tricks they use to make them way more stick little lead wires in them. Well, you don't want the lead wires. So that's one product. But that product again is

except if somebody is inordinately wealthy, is beyond the means of most people. And so what they started doing is making mycelial extracts of the cordyceps. And they were doing, they do a hot water mycelial extract. And it turns out the most common product is one known as CS4. And it turns out that CS4 contains no cordyceps whatsoever.

It contains another mushroom and the way that they manufactured it, unbeknownst to the manufacturers, is it's selected for this other fungus that is in the caterpillar. It's not just one fungus. And it's Samsonelia is the genus, but it is allowed to be sold as cordyceps because actually most of the studies on cordyceps are using that product. So,

Sebastian (: 57:50

Mmm.

David Winston (: 57:50

That is cordyceps and the cost is not prohibitive at all. And then more recently, is another species of cordyceps called cordyceps militaris that has become quite popular and it is easy to grow. Both the mycelium is easy to grow and the actual fruiting body is easy to grow. And there are increasing studies on cordyceps militaris showing it has very similar activity

to the Ophiocordyceps. And the wonderful thing about cordyceps is that it has for millennia been used again to address both male and female reproductive functions. So we know it's having an effect on hormonal activity, on reproductive hormones. It's been shown to lower blood sugar. It is also calming. It has anxiolytic activity as well as antidepressant activity. Cordyceps also

is probably our greatest nephroprotective, well, our second greatest nephroprotective herb that we have. And so for people with kidney damage, for degenerative kidney disease, cordyceps is really important. And in fact, there are at least six Chinese human clinical trials showing that cordyceps

can help prevent further degeneration with things like glomerular nephritis. It has been shown it can be used with cyclosporine for people who've had organ kidney transplants. Not only did it not negatively affect the effects of the cyclosporine, which prevents your kidney from being rejected, it reduced adverse effects. It allowed them to reduce the dose of cyclosporine. It is amazing stuff. But I would point out

that the number one nephroprotective herb, which some European herbalists are calling an adaptogen, except there is zero evidence that it is, is Nettleseed. Nettleseed is, in my mind, the single greatest kidney tropho restorative that we have. And I use it with cordyceps and astragalus and maybe some Don Chen, Salvia, Milti-Risa, for treating people with chronic degenerative kidney disease. And not just people.

David Winston (: 60:15

dogs, cats. I mean, we have seen remarkable results and I've been using nettle seed along with cordyceps for over 30 years.

Sebastian (: 60:26

I remember hearing the story of your discovery of how the nettle seed may be useful for a client one day and that insight that you learned from observing nature, but that's probably one for another day. it's been a great contribution, that your insight to the herbal community and people suffering with kidney disease for sure. I mean, David, thank you so much for sharing all this knowledge. I mean, it's really just encyclopedic and so useful to be.

reminded and encouraged to be so specific in our use of these precious herbs that are difficult to obtain in nature, you could say, from where they grow, and yet they seem to be needed more than ever in our world as people become more aware of how to take care of their health and the pressures they face. there's a wealth of knowledge in there. I think I've got...

I think I've got your first edition of this book, is that right David? So this is David's book on adaptogens. There's a second edition out with updates and do read it. It's got just a wealth of information about the intricacies regarding using various adaptogens. And David, wondered if there's, you know, is there one more thing you'd like to share with our listeners at all? Your insight and knowledge around herbalism is exemplary and unique, so.

anything you'd to share on top of what you've gifted us.

David Winston (: 61:57

Well, I think what I'd like to leave our listeners with is to understand, you know, a lot of people have this idea when it comes to medical care, there's sort of allopathic medical orthodox medicine and herbal medicine, and it's sort of this either or. And I don't believe that's true at all. I believe that there are certain things that orthodox medicine does much better than herbal medicine does.

And there are certain things that herbal medicine does much better. And in fact, where orthodox medicine is strong is exactly where often where herbal medicine is not. And the obverse is true where herbal medicine is strong is often where Western medicine is at its weakest. And so to me, it really comes down to figuring out what makes sense for this specific person. And to keep that open mind, whether it's your health or a patient's health.

to think about what's going to serve this person better. And sometimes, you know, if I have a patient who gets bitten by a deer tick and shows up with the bullseye rash for Lyme disease, I don't want them taking herbs. I want them to get a prescription for doxycycline. I'm going to suggest they take a three to four week course of doxycycline because in about 94 % of cases, they will be cured. That's it, especially if they catch it within two to three months of getting bitten.

On the other hand, if I have somebody who has chronic Lyme disease, meaning they didn't treat it early enough, orthodox medicine may not be able to effectively treat it at that point. And that's where herbs may come in to help give that person a much better quality of life. Although I don't think entirely getting rid of that Lyme of the Borrelia organism is necessarily possible with herbs. And so it's not an either or situation. Sometimes herbs

can be a primary therapy. Sometimes they can be adjunctive therapy. And sometimes they, you know, again, you have somebody with bacterial meningitis, don't call the herbalist, don't call the Reiki healer, don't call the chiropractor. You want to be in the hospital with an IV antibiotic, you know, or IV antibiotic. But when that person is released from the hospital, and they're told, well, yes, we recognize you have all the severe cognitive dysfunction, and hopefully over the next year,

David Winston (: 64:15

with some therapy, it'll improve. And you can give that person herbs, including adaptogens, maybe some nootropics, herbs that enhance cerebral circulation and reduce neuroinflammation, and you can have them fully functional in two to three months. Yeah, you want to do that. So herbs to me, you know, I fell in love with herbs 55 years ago, and I am still just as passionate about herbs and learning more about them.

every single day. And so if you start on this journey, one of the beautiful things is some people think this is daunting, but to me it is wonderful that no matter how much you know, none of us will ever know more than a fraction of what there is to know. And there's room for you every single day with every breath to learn more. And if you're going to be out there, whether you're helping yourself or helping your family, you can make an incredible difference in the world. So I want to thank you very much, Sebastian, for this opportunity.

to talk to your listeners. It has been a pleasure.

Sebastian (: 65:17

Thank you so much David. I think, you know, I've certainly loved it. I know everyone else will love hearing what you've got to say. So do look into David's work everybody. It's inspiring. And yeah, thank you so much, David. Love speaking with you.

Great. Well, I really loved it, David. You're so lucid and clear and such a huge subject as well, isn't it? But, you know, thank you so much for drawing attention to how specific we have to be with our use of adaptogens and the particular unique nature they each have.

David Winston (: 65:36

Thank you.

David Winston (: 65:51

I think, and we didn't really, I didn't use this word, but I think what it comes down to is, don't know, some herbalists are kind of like seem to be afraid of rigor, but it's like, again, if we use our terms, whether it's adaptogen or alternative, whatever, and we use them so generically that they lose all meaning, then, so I'm all for being really specific about things.

And again, and with adaptogens, it really comes down to evidence. It really comes down to research because that's where this stuff comes from. know, this is, it's not like, you know, in Ayurveda, you have thousands of years of racinas. And so if they say it's a racina, then it's a racina. But adaptogens don't have thousands of years of the individual herbs do. But as a class of herbs, as a way of understanding herbs,

Sebastian (: 66:33

Hehehe.

David Winston (: 66:43

it's a modern phenomenon. I just think it behooves us to look at the science in this case.

Sebastian (: 66:50

Well you made a really good case for that early on, how adaptogens didn't come from herbalism. I thought that was a great point.