Herbal Approaches to Heart Health with Vilma Matuleviciute

Sebastian: Hello there. Welcome to the herbcast, the podcast from Herbal Reality, delving into the plant powered world of herbalism. So do you know your echinacea from your eleutherococcus or your polyphenol from your polysaccharides? Whether you're a budding herbalist, an inquisitive health professional or a botanical beginner, herbcast is here to inform and inspire you on your journey to integrating herbs in our everyday lives. So settle down, turn aside and let's start today's episode of the Herbal Reality herbcast.

Simon: Welcome everybody to another of our herb casts. And today I'm really delighted to cross over the Irish Sea to talk to Vilma Matulevicuete in Ireland. and to hear about your experience in Ireland as a practitioner, a herbal practitioner, but also your And we're going to talk particularly today I think about the heart and how we might as herbal practitioners best approach the heart. So Vilma, tell us more about yourself. How long have you been in practise and where do you practise?

Speaker C: Hi Simon, thanks very much for inviting me. So I, I am nearly 30 years living in Ireland and I practise just over 21 years. So I mainly lived in Dublin and now I moved to a very beautiful countryside of Wicklow and it's really a beautiful experience. I started actually looking for something to extend my degree, in sort of chemistry, biochemistry. when I came to Ireland and this leaflet came into my hand about studying herbal medicine and it was like everything dropped into the place and also I saw I am a naturopath and a herbal medicine practitioner and I'm also craniosacral therapist. So that's my combined set of skills in the clinical practise.

Simon: A good long time in practise. And what's it like, briefly for those of us who don't live in Ireland, what's it like practise, Practising as a practitioner in Ireland, Are there particular issues there? I mean can you get your herbs all right? Are there other such issues?

Speaker C: I think recently we did unfortunately, yeah, we having much more problems with actually supplies where before that we never had. in fairness mainly our suppliers were actually in the UK for years and then we had a couple of Irish companies but actually we have difficult. So we forging some connections between UK suppliers again and between our suppliers. It's a big, big issue M. When a practitioner is worrying about actually having good quality herbs to work with and.

Simon: Has Brexit been a problem. I assume it has.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. They didn't want to mention it, but that's absolutely, crucially, was a big issue.

Simon: Yeah, yeah. Okay. But you've, you forge on. You see, you see patients and you've got 20 years of experience with them. And we, as I said, we are going to talk about the heart and I just invite you to open up. And what do you see as our, best contribution to heart health in practise?

Speaker C: So I think two maybe sort of ways that I think we are very, very important. So one is obviously on the very, you know, medical, physiological level, of tissue level. Actually, literally, it's supporting giving the herbs, prescribing the herbs, teaching people about the herbs for the heart, for cardiovascular. So that's sort of the, mechanics, if you wish, but another area where we feel we are hugely important and beneficial. It's actually as a clinician who listens to the person, that deep listening and being there for the person, that presence and allowing people time and Space to actually deeply talk and to hear them. And I think that's absolutely, crucially important for everybody's heart, for the herbalist, for my heart and for people who come to my practise actually, to, to be heard. I think many people, often very surprised how detailed and extensive and long, the initial conversation might be.

Simon: Yeah, so you're not like a normal doctor, you're not just reading the ECG and giving a prescription. On the basis of that, you're taking a much wider view of the body and the person.

Speaker C: Yes, just trying to understand the person, more their sort of emotional physiology, their mental, physiology in a

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Speaker C: sense, to understand how to prescribe, even the dosing and the herbs to choose nearly like a character of a person to some level, beside analysing their, diseases or imbalances which they present with. So it's sort of mixture, it's quite a. You know, it makes me feel very curious all the time and interested and obviously this wish to help, to solve the puzzle, but also to, to listen. I love that one to one conversation. I always did.

Simon: Yeah, you're quite right, isn't it? And so often the patients are grateful that you've done that because they've been to the cardiologist, they've been to the consultant and they get a very narrow, prescription which doesn't take account of the fact that their home life is troublesome or their work is a challenge or they've got even other health problems that the consultant hasn't taken into account which may we think be quite important. And I think you are ah, interested in the emotional well being and the much wider experience of the patient, aren't you?

Speaker C: Yes, it's like we are linking in a way. We listening and we are linking on the very practical. Like I listen and I try to link in the very practical level to give very practical suggestions but also to connect with a person, to actually hear them and to speak the language, not in the language way but in the manner, in the way that they would really hear me as well. And so what they could feel understood. and I think that this huge heart piece in this. I do think that deep listening and having that deep empathy, or fostering cultivating that sensitivity to another person. I think it's very important in our work and anyway in my practise for sure.

Simon: Yes. And what sort of heart symptoms or conditions do you see yourself treating mostly now? What are the main sort of headlines there?

Speaker C: So blood pressure, hypertension, it's a lot. And it's still people, you know, even you may chat with them for about an hour. They still have their white coat, even though we don't wear white coats. I don't wear white coat. So there is this sort of stress and tension. So a lot. But lately I do think since the pandemic we have to say that. But there is a lot of strange arrhythmias, and irregularities where people come in and which we haven't. I haven't seen or heard that much presentation of that heart written irregularity, tension, tightness of the chest. You know, we're sort of not able to take deep breath many times. Many, often people say that. and then we go maybe into more sort of like a broad, bigger metabolic situations where then maybe the weight and the lipids are higher and the liver health has to be looked at. So there is that either stress, you know, so tension, anxiety, poor sleep, poor cognition. And I see that big link between being a little bit like a scatter head or something like that and not being grounded in your heart to some level as well. yeah.

Simon: So does that include, therefore do you include symptoms like palpitations or angina or other things as part of the ways in which the heart manifests the stress.

Speaker C: Exactly. Very much so. With sort of chest symptoms which can be very strange. Like somebody recently was saying, I feel this electrical pulsing in my pit of my stomach and I feel tension and something. I feel like electrical bleeding. Literally, person was talking and I was like, Was listening, amazed at this person's clarity, even though neither of us could properly understand what exactly she explaining, but something about electrical conductivity of the heart. She definitely was saying something there. And people are very insightful. Without even trying, we just sort of start to speak and symptoms. Yes. tension, like all your red flags between the, you know, tightness, the left arm and jaw tension. And those are obviously very, you know, you always have your antennas up listening for any sort of cardiac, red flag symptoms.

Simon: Yeah, yes. And presumably those that come with a heart condition have had that diagnosed with the usual medical. And presumably will be on some prescriptions or other, for whatever, ah, circulatory condition we're talking about. and do you find the fact that they're on prescriptions a

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Simon: a barrier to treatment or do you manage to work around, the prescriptions that they're on?

Speaker C: Of course, I think herbalist sloth. When person comes in, into the clinic and may not on medication, it is easier in some ways to sort of just that path of the herbal path. however, polypharmacy in the clinic with people coming to multiple medications, it's very, very present. And it depends on the drug. If a person, you know, medication, prescribed. So if a person comes in and they under classical Casperin or statin, type maybe some sort of small dosage on some, you know, ACE inhibitor or beta, blocker just to start. Maybe they were sort of just starting their prescription. I find that maybe easier to navigate. And you know, there is still a lot of support. It's much more complicated. Complicated when people come maybe after a heart attack or when maybe you know, serious atrial fibrillations and they were put on serious medications like you know, anticoagulants and you know, which. Yeah. Then it is more complicated with the herbs. So going sort of trading around a little bit with foods and small dosages and very gentle and trying to still encourage the change in that inflammatory noise, in the back of the system. So gently, gently with the herbs and food. So foods become much more maybe important in very complicated situations. So I say the more complicated the situation, the more simple my treatment plan and starting steps are.

Simon: Yes, yes, quite. And we see a lot of what af, ah or atrial fibrillation are being diagnosed, which is linked to all sorts of consequences. And one of the main things that happens with someone with a diagnosis of atrial fibrillation is they get put on anticoagulants which immediately of course narrows, what we can do. But again presumably that's where dietary and other advice can be so important because we want to reduce some of the metabolic burden on the blood and do in other ways what the anticoagulants are doing which is reduce the risk of strokes.

Speaker C: Exactly, exactly. So if they come in like with Xarelto I think and Apixaban, those sort of type, very more complicated, more serious medications than Definitely I'm including more like with green juices and foods and looking at much more even just changing a couple of things. Don't prescribe too many things but sometimes it happens. So it's a three but sometimes I end up with five. So I say okay, try with three changes what you make. But I might have my plan A and then we may settle off of a plan B or something. But whatever person can manage actually without causing any more stress or heart problems for on you know, with extra homeworks and extra to do. But yeah, so changing maybe introducing more greens and colours and oranges and dark berries. Maybe we can start with that if they are on. And still quite slowly and gently and often time I feel that I am sort of sorting out through their box of actual supplements. Self medication, self prescribing is huge. I don't know issue or it's both pluses and minuses. It's wonderful that people are really taking responsibility for their health but actually sometimes it's really sort of wow, you know, like you own these 15 Ah supplements. sometimes.

Simon: But as you say the main thing in that situation is that the person is taking responsibility M Which is much better position even if they're taking perhaps too many supplements. It's a better position than not caring or not bothering because the heart clearly is a potential what's the word, Dramatic fact player. and we still a lot of people die from heart problems, you know, second only to cancer, and dementia I think in terms of mortality. so we have to treat the heart with respect, which is clearly what we are doing here, supporting it as broadly as possible. So you've touched on metabolic health and diet, to help the blood, shall we say. Yeah. And the heart's job is to m Help move blood around the body. I'm very struck by an insight that you know people talk about the heart as a pump and of course engineering wise that's impossible because the heart could not pump blood through all the capillaries, all the hundreds of miles of capillary that there are in the body. If it was just a pump. So we better to see it more as something that resonates with the whole of the circulation. It's almost like it whips up the normal pulse and the arterial system particularly.

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Simon: So in that case, we don't see the heart as on its own, do we? We see it as part of a much bigger circulatory phenomenon and all the things that impact on the circulation. So we started with them. We started with food and metabolism and metabolic strain, which clearly do impact. we. You touched already on emotion. And how do you see emotion particularly impacting on the heart and the circulation? is there a particular way in which you can sort of work there?

Speaker C: So there is a group of, you know, there is certain temperament of people, I think, you know, reactive people. So there are people who, you know, very phlegmatic and relaxed and calm. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't get. But there is a bit more, maybe what I see in the clinic as well, that, very reactive. So there is a strong emotion, maybe anger or frustration. So. And that creates quite a lot of tension through the congesting. You know, literally not able to take a breath because we sort of pent up all the energy in the adrenaline up on the shoulders. So we. We have, hypertension. So we see a lot of that.

Simon: That's like Chinese, liver,

Speaker C: Chi stagnation. Exactly, yeah, yeah. And sort of heat rising or Yang rising. Yes, exactly. So. So that's one type. So in that situation, actually quite a lot of nervines, just calming, soothing. And the liver herbs. So it's sort of always up and middle. So the top herbs would be. Quite a few would be nervines in the situation, if there's something hypertensive with the anger. But also they may have already. There could be, you know, some liver congestion starting as well, maybe with food, maybe alcohol, maybe coffee. So we need to rule that out. But the herbs to support the liver to help literally, like it could be dandelion, taraxicum, radix, could be a bit of milk thistle, but usually I like a bit of bitter flavour in these heat situations. So not necessarily the formal will be the whole predominantly bitter, but there will be some bitter herbs. It could be berberis, maybe if there is a bit of more congestion in a sense of weight with that person. And then, could be artichoke. Love my artichokes, actually, you know, leaf folia cinarus colimus in. In a lot of cardiovascular conditions, really a lot. and then on that sort of calming like. So it could be from anything. Depends on the personality. You know I talk about what people like as well. Like if I want to add chamomile I may give them a sniff. Ideally actually if I adding aromatic herbs I do tend now lately to. Because so many people are becoming very sensitive or whatever flavours and things. So I just say do you like the flavour or do you like caramel? I'll always ask if they like if they tried something if they have any likes or preferences, you know. So nervine herbs as I said could be chamomile passiflora. Really, really I like my placiflora for that very simple Passiflora incarnata passionflower to that relaxing the tension in the body internally externally from muscular to Vascular school cup. Sometimes people just might just keep going non stop. So Scutellaria lateriflora. It really does what it says that like just gently brings it down. If a lot of hypertension and people like lavender for example I find And the bitterness of lavender and you know that sort of anti inflammatory phone. But lavender can, can help to reduce as well. I like a little bit of lavender in that mix. so tilia, you know then we go more into vascular sort of circulation tilia. Because I personally, I don't find tillia as a strong anxiolytic personally you know but that's just maybe my experience or lack of whatever in this. But I love tilia but I just feel I really find much more calming effect on that stress response with people with actually chamomile opaciflora combination. But tilia would go there. I like that tilia that literally tree like branching out and bringing the lovely. That's as you mentioned that flow rippling down to the peripheries and having you know those polyphenols and having that anti inflammatory effect. I really like that background support.

Simon: Yes. I like linden or lime flowers as well. I mean I think you're right it's not a strong anxiolytic. I think it's mostly used in France for example for children. So that's a very gentle calming. But in terms of the circulation I think it's right on the button, isn't it? It's lovely.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's, it's, it's very much. I am Lithuanian so it's very much ver. Linden. You know, it's. Everybody drinks linden tea in Lithuania as well. It's so you know

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Speaker C: popular actually. For it's like universal to say. Yeah, as well.

Simon: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you've touched on those with a little vascular, impact, like tilia. So, the other one that obviously comes to mind is Leonuris. Isn't it the mother word? Do you find that up in the head as well, or do you think it's further down that you get the relaxing effect there?

Speaker C: Leonoris would be my classical heart herb. Absolute classical. That name, motherwort, which is just perfect for this herb. It's, you know, I used to say, you know, it's like a hook in the bottle. It just settles that tension that, if people have angina, you know, that tension, you know, obviously it's a flag and they may have been checked and. But it's just, you know, even Dr. May acknowledge, you know, but there's nothing serious and they, you know, just sort of let be to come, you know, deal with stress responses. Low noris is fabulous for that. tightness and calming. And often I use low norus and hawthorn together since the pandemic, as we mentioned, I am noticing those sort of arrhythmias and sort of. So I find, Hawthorne had been a few times my patients said that they found uncomfortable the formula, even though there may be only 15 mls in 100 of critiques. Okay. So sometimes I do, you know, if I can, I, don't add it in. Those people who feel that there is something, but I find it. It may compensate if I add leonorus together for that, you know, something a bit arithmetical or something a bit like strengthening. Where. Because I totally understand if cratigus is. Hawthorn is sort of strengthening, you know, ionotropic, isn't it? The heart muscle. If we have any irregularity, that irregularity may be strengthened as well. You know, it's a common sense. So if I'm in any way questioning it, I don't add it. If I have any sort of suspicion, but I'm not sure, then I don't add it. But Leonouris together with kratigos, I find a wonderful combination for the heart. And then I love adding in that chest. Ah, sort of symptomology picture. I love my Angelica sinensis. I really do. Small amounts.

Simon: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Simon: Well, that's. I haven't heard that. So what, what do you. How do you find that works or helps?

Speaker C: So it's like. It's like something I feel is nourishing the blood. So it's like we often say, nourish the blood and we Sort of mix and match with the melodology between traditional Chinese medicine and nearly sort of Western naturopathic nourish the blood. But I do think it does the boat from all the world's Angelica sinensis thus nourishing the blood. It brings that I feel it was improves that was relaxation. And also people may be a little bit again lack of focus. So I'm looking for some sort of symptoms of maybe lack of. So lack of maybe focus or attention or maybe a bit of fatigue or if it's a woman looking periods maybe scanty. So I am looking are they pale? But even if people are not necessarily manifesting all of their classical Chinese medicine blood deficiency symptoms, I just if their tongue is very pale or if they working very hard, I just feel it's like m feeding. Yeah. Really, really good. So this nice combination taste wise bitter.

Simon: Yes.

Speaker C: And then sort of aromatic. Yeah for circulation.

Simon: we can't keep away from hawthorn for very long. Keep coming back to it. But which parts of the plant do you use? Because there's an Irish tradition initially of using the berries. do you use them berries and leaf or both together or separately?

Speaker C: Yeah, both actually. I use berries and I use flowering tops of a leaf combination usually could be 50, 50, could be maybe more berries. Sometimes I just use berries actually as well. So I very rarely use flowering tops and leaves on their own. Of Hawthorne. If anything I more tend to look for berries on their own or in the combination.

Simon: I've never worked out what the distinction is. Obviously most of the research is on the flowers and leaves. and I've not actually used the berries myself much because I've got my suppliers use the flowers and leaves. But have you actually figured out a distinction between their effects?

Speaker C: Sour. So it's a sourness which sort of sweet sour taste of a berry tincture which flowering topstone half. So that sweet sour it's like for me it's like if you look at this cardiovascular support we always speak about berries.

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Speaker C: Isn't it red, dark purple. And that's where then the berry comes into this exam exactly this situation with that sort of sweetness and sourness. So it just helps a bit of digestion, you know. But also it's Yeah, I find that. I find the taste really informs a lot, you know, with emotions or with a symptomology. if there is a bit of nourishment. I find berries are ah, very nourishing again in that you know, blood building, nourishing, protecting for atherosclerosis preventative. You know, like, we need to look into prevention. Very important prevention, isn't it?

Simon: Do you make your own, hawthorn berry yourself? Do you collect it from hedgerows?

Speaker C: I do make some. Like my mom used to make amazing liqueurs. I remember always she was famous. Maybe that's where I am also coming from. But I, I love a bit of Irish whiskey, but just for myself, for my friends and drinks, you know, not necessarily for the patients. But yes, it's nice to make. I remember. Make. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Simon: Do you. Do you have to cook it or do you just press it or soak it? I mean, how do you.

Speaker C: I just. I mean, yeah, just soak it. I just soak it. Yeah. It really has a lot of pectin, actually. It becomes sort of nearly hardy. Yeah. So it's an interesting one then.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I must start thinking of doing that myself because there's enough of berries around here as well. But you know, as I said, we've got so used to using the fruit and leaves, it'd be nice to extend that a bit. I like the idea of the sour and sweet taste because as we know those are very powerful aspects of a medicine. the tastes and It sounds as though something we could all explore. Isn't it a bit more of a rounded contribution to heart and circulation health?

Speaker C: Exactly. And if people like that flavour, not like every person, but actually more and more. I hear what people actually like to. They actually part of fluid intake. So they take the tincture if it's flavour, you know, if a flavour what they like, it may make a drink and maybe drink sort of like a hot or warm or cool drink. And I think that's fabulous because they much, you know, we sort of as long sipping, they engage with that flavour and. And then berries like Horton, we don't have too many berries to even make our tinctures tasty. And that's good for the heart when it's something pleasurable and tasty as well. You know, I like my bitters and I always say to people, enjoy your bitters. But still it's combination there. Yeah.

Simon: I suppose another thing is, maybe you notice this a bit more and where you are. But the fact that hawthorn is so widely available and accessible means that people could use it for themselves. And given most heart problems are lifelong problems, this is something that they could fit into their normal diet and their normal lifestyle, isn't it? If they make their own hawthorn brew of some sort or another.

Speaker C: Yeah. Very much so. There are syrups going around. You talk with colleagues who are very much into making very creative, you know, remedies. and it is really nice. You can make absolutely whole syrup with you know, you sort of cook it slowly and add ah, a bit of honey you can flavour to preserve with a bit of Irish whiskey or whatever, you know. But you have this nice really yes. Remedy for long. It is I find hawthorn, it's a sort of slow so it's one way in prescribing I find it's not an acute remedy. You know, like you can have a shot of, you know and it sort of stabilises the symptoms, steadies the heart or you know, chamomile or passiflora feel quite immediate, you know, soon. Immediate effect with hawthorn. Yes, there is something there. I'm not saying but it's no effect. But actually it is long term remedies and it's sort of mild, gentle overall long term.

Simon: Yeah. And there is so much of it about any countryside in this part of the world there's no shortage. Whereas mother work may be rather harder to find and pass the floor is very difficult. So yeah, it's nice to have something close to hand, isn't it? Yeah. So as we're talking it seems as though there's a few sort of types or body types or constitutional types that you're talking about. You're talking first of all those that are the stressful ones, the ones with a lot of energy, going up into the head, what in the dosha terms might be called the vata types, you know, those that are much more prone to stress reactions and then you earlier on touch those that have the more metabolic often weight related problems where there's lipid buildup and other pressures of that sort. so there's two quite different types of heart problem, aren't they? They are often mix. It tends to be either one or the other. Although you can get some in the middle that

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Simon: are both putting on weight and stressed. Yes, but it sounds as though you're sort of already beginning to differentiate in terms of the constitution as to how you approach the heart.

Speaker C: Yeah, very much so. There is more congestion that congestive in more like ayurvedic medicine would say kapha or there is more dampness in the, you know, maybe more weight buildup or maybe it could be more visceral sort of abdominal weight. And so there is more lipids if they bring their blood, ah, test results There would be maybe some elevation of cholesterol seen in this and blood pressure maybe starting to rise. And there is maybe foods are not the best. You know, there could be a bit of more, you know, possibility to change. But in that situation then I think one of the sort of first remedies and very easily forgotten or maybe just because it's not extremely sociable remedy. It's garlic in that, you know, lipid atherosclerosis and that sort of. So garlic as a. Just eat garlic. if people cannot take garlic, it's not very sociable if you know, in a sense some people, you know, unless they maybe have irritation in the stomach if they eat raw so that obviously they cannot take it. But garlic, it's absolutely fabulous remedy to. And again not something. But it's important to give people something. Like we spoke about Hawthorne syrup or tincture. What people could make something. Where is this engagement on the longer term? So it's yes, I'm going to the herbalist but also I can do and garlic at home, you know, that's easily accessible. That's very nice. That's all your spices come in, isn't it? So lighter. So the heavier the constitution, the slightly lighter emphasis on the remedies in the tincture or at least a little bit of lipped.

Simon: Yeah. Sometimes you need to warm it up and get things going. And actually the evidence for garlic, the only evidence for garlic we have is actually for the. The non smelly version. You know, the garlic pearls, the ones where they've taken out the odour. and some of us would think that's you know, not real garlic. But actually the evidence is that you don't. If you're really worried about the smell, you can actually have a supplement that doesn't have it. but I agree if you were able to switch to a more Mediterranean diet with bit more garlic, there's evidence to show that that in itself protects the heart with a little bit of fermented grape juice perhaps alongside it. Exactly a bit. Wine and garlic seem to be a very useful mix to head off some of these problems in the right context, I think, isn't it?

Speaker C: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Simon: I think, I think if you were to use the Ayurvedic term, if you were more of a pitter type, then garlic and wine might m. Actually be a little bit too stimulating and you. I want to back off some of that.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Too heat inducing and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But olive oil as well in this, if we're Talking about Mediterranean, isn't it? Like a little bit, more involved and all the colourful vegetables. It's always. It's like sometimes you don't need to tell people to take away something often just to start introducing good stuff slow by, you know, step by step into like more vegetables, more colour vegetables. Yeah, that's very crucially important. Yeah.

Simon: And one of the things that a heart scare will do to somebody is make them sit up and look at their health for the first time. Maybe, because they're suddenly frightened by what's happened. and that can be a really. One can work with that to make it something positive rather than something fearful. You can encourage people to take a positive step health wise. Using, the heart as a little reminder, you know. Ah, get this right, mate.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And also on a very practical level, so sometimes people say that they have been diagnosed with you know, non alcoholic fatty liver condition. It's changed the name now into something steroids, something. Yeah. Like. But it doesn't. Yeah, it's still the same thing basically. So. Yeah. So, then it's very important. So the bitters would come in, you know, more people, you know, I'm sort of, yeah. Bringing more bitters like berberine, rich herbs. Like usually I go for Berberis vulgaris in fairness. it's sort of European. It's, it's here, it's available. So I definitely go for Berberis vulgaris in this situation. to bring a bit of that lipids, atherosclerosis reducing and that liver support. And I'm. I. If there is a fatty liver, I would have milk thistleneck in there for sure. And in cooking at home, I would say use a bit of turmeric in and out without sort of jamming too many supplements. So people engaged a little bit with turmeric. Another

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Speaker C: obviously Tsinara artichoke. Those are good. And Schisandra. So it can be a few or one. So it depends. If I have space, I may even add a couple of liver, herbs, especially if there is a bit of digestion, if I feel. But there's a bit of sluggishness, that sort of metabolic congestion, but also digestive sluggishness, you know, like constipation or tendency to. So then that would inform how many, you know, liver herbs I may add in one, formula, you know, just for that broader. Yeah.

Simon: So, you touched on something which I think you said you had a case story which might enlighten this. You touched on the use of Angelica sinensis, for example, in women. and one of the issues that's interesting is that after the menopause heart, problems can become more of a problem in a woman. And it may be the drop in some of the hormones may be involved here. But I think you said you had a case to discuss that's relevant.

Speaker C: It's a very. Again it's a post menopausal woman with lifelong stress, anxiety and previous born out. So after the pandemic and after sort of like four or five years into menopause, really health issues, you know, sort of flared up badly with severe anxiety being literally like thinking what she cannot cope. Absolutely. Sleep is out of order. And those weird strange sensations in the chest, in the heart. It's like in the. From the. And I. That sort of like electrical something going on. So funnily interesting enough for this particular. Initially I didn't add Hawthorne as my first for this particular because I just wasn't sure how much of that irregularity because it seems like this wind, it's like stormy. And I, I felt I don't want to strengthen. I don't know. It was probably more intuitive. I just felt okay. I wasn't sure how much even though ECG was done for the person and they suggested just recently was very small dose of I think ACE inhibitors. so she just probably. I think she was just starting when she came in just. But blood pressure was high. That was the issue. So poor sleep, this Very, very difficult to feel. To be feelings, in the chest, literally in the, in the shoulders. And so I actually add, very rarely I use. But because of blood pressure I asked Visco, malbo for her a little bit. It's not the herb that I use much because there is restrictions in Ireland. You, you know, what. There are certain herbs so restricted in Ireland or they are you know, difficult to get or dosages or things like that. But I just was not using very much Viscomalbum. But lately again I Small dosages. I just added 10mL in 100 and Passiflora, chamomile. I really calmed the person. You know, literally worked on that and it really hugely significantly helped in this particular. And then we kept working on nourishing. So astragalus is one of those herbs. You know, post is like a bit of angelica, a bit of astragalus, hawthorn came in later, much later, several months later and low nerves came in and also always some nervines So I do see that sort of a lot of, you know, women that I would see post menopausal, because you want to calm the daily stress, anxiety, so the sleep would be supported. You also at this age you want to, I want probably introduce a bit of maybe some sort of gentle adaptor, you know, if there's fatigue starting and where the women, if, you know, people are younger. I don't necessarily feel like I need to move the stagnation more, you know, like sort of disperse maybe that's, you know, something or maybe gently improve. But now I feel like we need a little bit more sort of a deeper nourishment, a bit of like I say, building blocks.

Simon: Yeah, that's exactly where I hoped that this part of the conversation would go. I mean the evidence suggests that one of the main dangers to the heart is lack of sleep. So. And that is associated with fatigue and exhaustion and low energy and low battery power, isn't it? So often, especially with our older patients, nourishment and tonics and sustenance become the main focus as it sounds as though you were moving to in your story. Yes. And do you think the fact that it's a woman is that there are other factors that you could bring into play there? I mean, I suppose Angelica sinensis is one example.

Speaker C: Yeah. So the diet wise, if they, you know, like especially if there's that around sort of post menopause, sort of just early like I always introduce phytoestrogens

:: 40:00

Speaker C: of some form or shape always. I find, you know, we're just nice foods, we're plants so it's no harm eating more plant based diet anyway, your legumes, your beans, your pulses, so all for bac. A family is coming in. you know, so that's, that's in the, in the dietary sense and flax seeds in and out and apples and fennels and things like that. But in the. So if it's early stage, if, if there is no actually any menopausal symptoms at this stage. So this particular person that I'm sort of thinking, so she, she's posed, there is no menopausal symptoms, there's no sweats or something but there is a residual insomnia and there is this deep, deep anxiety and it's like very, very long lasting. Everything was very long lasting. So the nourishment then, it wasn't necessarily specific phytoestrogen based, but there would be astragalus let's say because of its blood pressure lowering quality of sort of cardiac and nephroprotective. It's. It's just. I love that herb, especially if I see on the tongue a bit of, you know, dampness or it's just. I feel it's sort of that core of us is like. Helps to. It's like brings it down, helps to digest, you know, in a sense or something sort of grounding at the centre of us urging a little bit, without stimulating because not some of those, Like. I'm thinking about few like that type of women. They actually. No weight on them. They very vata, very vata disturbed, you know, maybe a bit of pitta going on, sort of flaring up a little bit. But actually so there is lightness. So even that sort of grounding a little bit something. It really comes in. So Angelica and astragalus, it seems like it's a lovely combination. Sometimes codenopsis comes in as well, you know, if there's needs. But if I had to go to more stronger adaptogens for daytime so they wouldn't deplete themselves more during the daytime to improve their sleep. Eleutherococcus may be too stimulating for some. You know, like, I love all the coccus and many people benefit greatly from that as well. I prescribe it a lot, especially if there is thyroid maybe happening as well post, you know, for some sort of women later on. And so. But I find Yeah, astragalus codenopsis, very, very sort of nourishing, not stimulating, supportive and daytime support of the system. So it wouldn't go into the anxiety. I do feel really helps to deepen the sleep. So then in the evening we still may give some. I still may prescribe some herbs which would be like, really like your sleep mix. But if I just did sleep mix in the evening and didn't do that support, it's just not sufficient. It just. It may, You know, but no, it's not sufficient really. And so sleep improvement is a huge area, a huge issue to supporting the heart, the joy. People cannot be joyous if they exhausted next day and the mood is sort of off and. Yeah.

Simon: That'S right. So, yes, I think we've sort of, And this has been a really very effective move, around the different aspects. We start with a heart and we end up talking about different characteristics, different constitutions, different approaches that follow that. So thank you for taking us through the main headlines. is there anything we've missed so far that we need to just recoup on before we close?

Speaker C: Who's this thinking the heart. Yeah. They touched on the listening of that communication and that, you know, when people feel encouraged and. Encouraged, isn't it that sort of hearty word as well, herbal wise, maybe mushrooms, maybe ganoderma we haven't mentioned, you know, that's another nice herb. Maybe could, be quite nice. And yarrow. Yarrow. It's a fascinating herb and I am using it in cardiovascular support. In heart support. As that like beside the tilius. Like that. Really like a messenger worker. So those two herbs are really fascinating. And Achilles, especially ganoderma. Yes. I use ganoderma, quite a bit in chronic, you know, that sort of long term, like cardio liver depletion, you know, it's a slow one. I do feel mushrooms are slow and long.

Simon: Yes, they are, yes. But almost by definition. Yes, but as we said, the heart problems are for life. So long term things are always important, aren't they?

Speaker C: Exactly.

Simon: Dealing with the heart.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Simon: Well, lovely. Thank you so much. I mean, we've, I mean to talk about the heart in 45 minutes is really quite a challenge. But you've done very well taking

:: 45:00

Simon: us around the block. So thank you, Vilma, so much for adding this to our treasures, of herb casts in Herbal Reality and for taking the time and joining us from across the water. So we're very grateful. Thank you so much.

Speaker C: Thanks very much, Simon. My pleasure.

Sebastian: You've been listening to the Herbcast, the podcast from Herbal Reality. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If so, perhaps you'd like to leave us a rating that would really help us to spread our message for herbal health. We hope you'll join us again for the next episode. And in the meantime, if you'd like a few more herbal insights from us, do have a look@HerbalReality.com or learn more from us via Instagram, where we're at Herbal Dot Reality. And we're on Twitter and Facebook too. We'll be back with another episode of the Herb Car soon. Thanks for joining.