Herbs for Colds and Fevers: The Diaphoretics with Dr. Amparo Aracil

Herbs for colds and fevers: The Diaphoretics

Sebastian: Hello there. Welcome to the herbcast, the podcast from herbal reality, delving into the plant powered world of herbalism. So, do you know your echinacea from your eleutherococcus, or your polyphenol from your polysaccharides? Whether you're a budding herbalist, an inquisitive health professional, or a botanical beginner, herbcast is here to inform and inspire you on your journey to integrating herbs in our everyday lives. So settle down, turn us up, and let's start today's episode of the herbal reality herb cast.

Sebastian: Hello, everybody, great to be back with you. I'm here today with doctor Amparo Arasil, and we're going to talk about herbs for immunity, and particularly the class of herbs called diaphoretics, which are often used when you get a seasonal infection or virus or turin infection. So really looking forward to our conversation. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Ampereau m thank you for inviting me.

Sebastian: All the way from Spain today. You said you're in?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yes, that's where I am based now. Yes.

Sebastian: so let's just go for it straight away. And you know, what happens when we get a seasonal infection? What happens to the system then we can look at which herbs we use to treat that and how we'd go about it, right?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: So, when we get, an infection, whether it's a viral infection, bacterial infection, usually, but not always, some of those viruses or bacteria, are, ah, what we call external pyrogens. So initially we might get this sort of fever response, right? And, that's where our diaphoretic herbs can be very useful and very relevant. So, when, you know, some viruses produce substances, molecules that trigger this fever. So they usually release something called, ah, interleukin one, which tells the hypothalamus in the brain, right, you need to raise the temperature. So by creating that warmer temperature in the body, that's one of the mechanisms of the natural mechanisms, the body has to keep the viral load or bacteria at a minimum level. But this fever can be quite useful, and beneficial because the release of all these molecules, you know, they encourage sort of the t cell response and there is this sort of pro inflammatory cascade, but all these molecules, all these cytokines are very useful, ah, at telling the immune system, right, you've got to go and activate yourself and fight the infection. so that's sort of what happens usually, happens when we, when we get a virus, when we get a bacteria, we get this response, raised temperature the body is saying, let's shut down. So all the peripheral circulation, if you like, shuts down to keep heat inside the body. Temperature rises inside the body and that helps the body cope with infection. So bacteria and viruses don't multiply as much. And also that triggers that inflammatory and that immune m response that we need. So if we didn't have anything to take drugs or herbs, the body would be able to clear, if everything goes well, that infection on its own with this sort of reaction.

Sebastian: M so that's why we feel so rough. When we get an infection, your body temperature goes up. You get the aches and pains, you lose your appetite, maybe you've got a headache, etcetera. It feels like the illness is at the edge of your body in a way.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Exactly.

Sebastian: Your joints.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Exactly. Because all these, because of all these pro inflammatory, molecules that cause pain, but also because of all this heat, the heat that we accumulate that is trapped inside the body and as we're tired, for example, useful, in that they can help the body, get rid or ease off this heat, release this heat in an organic way. So paracetamol shuts the fever down, right? So blocks interleukin one, blocks that response, that blocks it. And diaphoretics by, you know, we know that diaphorex sort of increases sweating by, increasing the peripheral circulation. So by letting heat escape, what the so called. You break a fever, so you increase the temperature slightly and then you let heat escape. You know, they help with, resolving, if you like, but they do it in a much more complex way anyway, because they're complex and they do not have one constituent, but it sort.

Sebastian: Of, becomes, a challenge in a way, doesn't it? Because you need your body temperature to go up to fight the infection. but you don't want it to go too high because obviously over a certain point that becomes dangerous. So you get this balance with diaphoretic herbs that encourage peripheral circulation, that they raise your temperature a bit, but then the fever breaks, which releases this tension that you've got at the edge. And these aches and pains all through this sort of inflammatory process that you've been talking about.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Exactly, exactly. And just as a reminder, right. So fever is good. I know, you know, we herbalists believe that a fever is good, but we need to remember a fever over 40 is dangerous and we need to seek medical advice. And a fever that cannot be explained by an infection, is also a red flag. So you know, the body, different causes of fever, you know, cancer can cause fevers, and some autoimmune conditions can cause fevers as well that need to be explored. So just as a reminder, you know, a fever that cannot be explained by external pathogen needs to be looked at.

Sebastian: Into, and a runaway fever as well, when you're getting an infection. So thank you for reminding us of these edges where we need to be so careful.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Red flag. But otherwise, yeah. herbs do that in a very sort of organic and complex way, by slightly raising, you know, creating heat, but then helping by promoting, encouraging that peripheral circulation, letting the heat escape. but they are all anti inflammatory, they are all antibacterial, all these diaphoretic herbs. So they can do a multitude of things at once, and they are not blocking your innate immune response. They are allowing the body to still be producing those immune cells that we need. They're not blocking them, but they are easing off the tensions, you were saying. Exactly. And, and modulating it, because some of these herbs, right, like yarrow and, well, all of them, really ginger, are anti-inflammatory. So they modulate that immune response.

Sebastian: So they're like working in multiple ways at the same time. They're not just trying to close a fever down, per se, or stop pain, they're trying to do the totality.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Exactly, and that's what I, that's what I love about herbs and, you know, how very they are. So all the different actions and virtues and qualities they've got and the fact that we can use any of those sort of actions or virtues from multitude of scenarios, and that's fantastic because that's something that only herbs can do. and mushrooms.

Sebastian: Yes, exactly. Well, food, nature has got those sort of multiple, multiple pathways. So maybe let's explore for a minute, just as a basic approach. What would one do if one just meets a client or, you know, with a usual, symptoms presenting, what would be some simple remedies? Where might you go? Which herbs might you reach for?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Well, we've got two very different scenarios, right. So acute infections and chronic infections, or chronic conditions that are there because there is like an ongoing or low grade infection or the immune system hasn't been able to fully resolve. So acute versus chronic, I think that's important. And diaphoretics, or immune modulators have a slightly different role, whether you're treating something acute, whether you're treating something chronic. So when someone comes to me with something acute, an acute infection, seasonal bag diaphoretic herbs to help. Again, as we said, with the fever response, I use yarrow a lot. Yarrow is one of my favourites. so teas and tinctures. So yarrow tea with peppermint perhaps. So, a mixture of warming and cooling, and then tinctures, diaphoretics, but also, anti infectives, immune modulators, antibacterials and so on. So lots of echinacea, thyme, ginger, ah, and depending on the person's constitution then I would call slightly more warming, slightly more cooling. So really depending on who is in front of me. so that's for something acute. I tend to go to high doses for a short period of time. So a tincture with quite high doses for a week or might that be.

Sebastian: Going to, what are your high doses?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Say, echinacea time, elderberry for virus? I like going for a wide spectrum. So go viral, bacterial, so all of it, just in case. And then echinacea as well. And I would say ten meals three times a day. Ten meals four times a day of that preparation or five times a day.

Sebastian: My brain is really going in regularly, hydrate regular, get better quickly of your body.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah, exactly. For three, four, five days. I think that's absolutely okay. Some people, herbalists, are scared of high doses of echinacea. I'm not as, ah, scared and I've used it a lot with autoimmune conditions and I know you need to be wary. We are all different and we will all react differently, but for a short period of time, high dose, you know, of sort of echinacea or other antibacterials, I think is absolutely fine.

Sebastian: 50 millilitres a day of a one in five is like ten grammes. If it was one in two, then, you know, getting a bit higher, maybe. and then with the tisane, with the hot infusion that you're giving, what might the dosage of herbs be there when you're trying to get someone to.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Stop and ask, you know, I say just drink four, five, six, you know, cups, cups, in a day, chew teapot. I use teas a lot. I think they can be very powerful to treat, you know, to support and treat many conditions. And I see two teapots a day. You know, you need to use a therapeutic dose when your body is not in equilibrium and you want to sort of bring it back into balance, then you need to be drinking enough tea.

Sebastian: And what's in a pot of the yarrow, what do you put in ten grammes, 20 grammes, 30 grammes. How much do you put in a pot?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah, I don't, I don't really, yeah, I don't really measure. I use, you know, instinct, just.

Sebastian: A few spoonfuls of it as such. A handful.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah, exactly. So, but in a, in a teapot, I would put three heaped, tablespoons.

Sebastian: 15 grammes, or maybe something like that. Just that it's interesting because, you know, herbalism very specific and is like a science. But there's also this artistic bit where when you speak to different herbalists, they've got different approaches to treatments and there's that range of viewpoints, like you say, based around the client and how their body size, their age. I mean, I know it's specific to.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: The person and what they can do. Right. Some people have busy, you know, very busy lives, or cannot take three days off to just fully rest and look after themselves and take the herbs, and they just want to sort of crack on or are not able to for many different reasons. so you need to also tailor that. You know, there's an ideal scenario and then there's a realistic scenario. So I like, you know, I like working with that a lot. I don't, I really like, trying to make a herbal medicine as accessible as possible, then really being very flexible. I'm very, very flexible.

Sebastian: it needs to be practical, doesn't it? People are busy, they’ve got jobs, families, outside life. You've got to make it taste reasonable or be consumable and fit in with their lifestyle.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah.

Sebastian: what do you know? Do you ever use this idea of there being warming, diaphoretics and cooling diaphoretics? Do you explore that in your practice? And is there ever any difference in how you might treat that? You know, in chinese medicine, they got this idea of, I don't know if you've studied much chinese medicine, but wind heat and wind cold, they got sort of two different classes of herbs for treating fevers. And, in western herbalism, we have this sort of warming diaphoretic and cooling diaphoretic.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: and I use a combination of both. I used to use a lot more warming diaphoretics before, so when I started, I used a lot of chilli and ginger, and I've moved away. I've moved away from chilli. It's not that I don't use it at all, but I've moved away and now I use more of a combination. So ginger is sort of as hot as I get, and then I use, well, yarrow is more of an amphoteric. So I feel like a bit warming, a bit cooling. and with a fever, I use cooling. So I use sort of yarrow or almond cooling. So elder flowers, mint, lemon balm. I really like lemon balm. And that's more comfort. so that's for fevers. I use a combination of both when treating long term conditions. Then I might go sort of more ginger gyro, but a little bit more warming because I want to open up, really open up to help as well the delivery of other herbal compounds into the area. So I have a slightly different strategy there.

Sebastian: okay, interesting. So it sounds like we're a cum phase. Yeah, acute phase is relatively. Relatively, we're saying ABC in its presentation because it's generally self resolving anyway, isn't it? People are going to get better, but with the herbs, we're just trying to ease the symptoms and hasten recovery and prevent it from turning into something longer term, of course, which is one of the main issues of perhaps suppressing fevers or not getting enough rest at the right time. so obviously we've been through the pandemic and there's the long history of me and chronic fatigue syndrome in herbal clinics. We all have experienced treating lots of people with those conditions that haven't been able to recover from a previous infection. I imagine it's the same for you, Ampereau. And I mean, how would you go about diagnosing perhaps some of these longer term conditions and then going about treating them when they are a sort of residual viral infection?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah, that's interesting because with long Covid, I mean, I was treating post viral conditions before, like any chronic fatigue, Lyme. So I was doing some of that work. And now with long Covid, I think I've been seeing more and more patients for sort of a post viral condition. And I think with COVID and long Covid we've learned loads because there's been loads of research as to how some of these post vital syndromes behave so I mean, how do I diagnose? I don't use testing a lot, in my practice, as in testing, as in biomedical, blood test sort of testing. I go more with symptoms, signs, diagnosis of exclusion and then a bit of instinct more than go and get all these fancy tests of this sort of, you know, viruses and microfluorency. I use more sign symptoms and my intuition.

Sebastian: That's interesting.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah. And then if they've been tested for things, you know, if you've got fatigue, and then. But you are not heavily anaemic, your thyroid is working well. So you get a simple blood test done at the GP practice and it all sort of comes back negative. Some people with long Covid are getting lung function tests, sometimes ecocardiograms. it all comes back negative. Then you're thinking, right, this is long. And so it's a diagnosis of exclusion sometimes. And I find patients sometimes find that really hard. It's like, where is the marker? It's like, well, there is not a marker. It doesn't mean that your symptoms aren't real and that what you have is not the aftermath of a viral condition, in this case, Covid. So working with a patient to help them understand and accept that what they have is real, is part of the process. So I do that so that's in terms of diagnosis, I mean, and then there are other conditions, like Lyme's where you can have a simple blood test. But I think with the case of COVID and other postvital syndromes, they sent a marker. So it's a diagnosis of exclusion.

Sebastian: Yeah. There's not one method to diagnose.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah. And then you sort of go with it. And at the end, sometimes. Sometimes. Does it really matter? As long as you've excluded all the really serious conditions, you're just treating the person and their symptoms and how I go about, say, long Covid, adrenal fatigue, post viral, immune regulation. The immune system, as we know, is completely, out of balance inflammation. So using loads and loads of, anti inflammatory helps adrenal support, microbiome support and circulatories and diaphoretics. And I think now with long Covid, because of all the research that has been going on, we know, or at least with COVID we know that there is a big problem with peripheral circulation. Right. Covid, we've got fibrine aggregation, we've got endothelial dysfunction, which I think that's really interesting and it's helped me as well, extrapolate to other, conditions, but also to help my patients with long Covid, just think, right, so fibrin aggregation in the vessels. So fibrin promotes inflammatory cytokines, vascular permeability, clots, blood clots and endothelial dysfunction. So they know. They've established that. And then you've got our circulatories, like, well, there's Chile, there is yarrow. We know, I mean, they've been traditionally used as powerful, secretary stimulants. But we know as well that they are fibro analytics. So they break down fibrin. Right. And now modern, modern science has proven that they break down fibre in things like yarrow, things like chilli. So here, think it makes sense. All these traditional use of these herbs that happen now, they also have these actions. I do use diaphoretic stimulants a lot in my phobias for patients with long Covid. for two reasons. One is that improving the circulation helps the pathology of cell, the pathophysiology itself. And second, I think they are really good at distributing the other herbal compounds. So by vasodilating and improving access to the tissues that you want to access, with all the different herbs, they act as a medium for all the other herbs to act in the tissues that they should be acting. Anyway. In my formulas I always put yarrow, depending on the person as well, but, or ginger, depending on how much heat they've got. but some diaphoretics and then adrenal support, sort of the gut and anti inflammatories.

Sebastian: Okay, brilliant. So you're again crafting a formula for the individual, but putting in some more, restorative herbs. In a way, it sounds like, I like what you said then about the endothelium. I think so much of the interface, obviously, with the herbs and the rest of the body is happening at the endothelial level. And, particularly the research going on, obviously turmeric, green tea, cacao, this idea of NRF. Two, this whole sort of antioxidant mechanism that I think it is so relevant. And you’ve written some really great articles for us at herbal reality. Thank you. I really appreciate it. I'll mention some of them. But there's one quote I, wrote out. You wrote a really good article about the role of herbalism in preventative medicine. And how can herbalism help prevent disease, given that we've got some serious sociological issues with health? Ah, and m we don't have a great preventative healthcare system. We've got a very good emergency healthcare system and some incredible doctors and medics.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: We collapsed in, by the way. The emergency system is also collapsing, sadly, in the UK. I just wanted to say it's breaking down.

Sebastian: Yes, it is, it is. We're going to talk about antibiotics in a minute. But what you just said really triggered me to read out this quote because you've talked about so many dimensions to the treatment there of, long Covid. And you said through the immunomodulatory, antioxidant, anti inflammatory, antimicrobial and metabolic regulatory effects of medicinal plants. Herbalism offers valuable tools for promoting health and preventing illness. I mean, there's just so many systems you're talking about there. Immunomodulatory, antioxidant, anti inflammatory, antimicrobial and metabolic. So herbs working on all those dimensions through all those systems, tissues, organs, at the same time, it's no wonder they have this incredible, adaptive effect and help us. You can make it poetic and talk about weaving through the challenges of life, or you can make it scientific and talk about upregulating or down regulating various enzyme pathways. But it seems like herbalism helps us work, as one system. There's more harmony and more integration created between areas that are lacking or areas that are excess or overworking or underworking in our body. I just love that quote. I just thought it really summed up the front edge of research that's going on in herbalism today, where every time we read about a herb, it's not just one organism or one bacteria works on it, it's multidimensional. And one thing that I often had wanted to learn about, as you hear about antibiotics and obviously the amazing effect they've had over many years, but then, you know, more recently, there's lots more research talking about how they obviously disrupt the gut flora. And that potentially has got a knock on effect with various other diseases, such as diabetes, obesity, metabolic syndrome, some of these other disorders because of disordered gut. and, you know, you talked about some antibiotic and antiviral herbs before. are they also having a negative effect on the gut or do they have a nail effect on the gut or do they have a positive effect?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Well, I think usually because herbs are so complex and multi dimensional, I would say that they have not a nil effect, but more of an amphoteric effect. So a modulatory sort of effect. Although when I think when we use loads of one antibacterial, or I find a standardised, or, when we struct the active constituent and we use, for instance, a load of allicin. Yeah. So from Gaelic, I have found. I don't do that myself, in my practice, but I have found that patient's sort of microbiome or symptoms make us decompensate as well. So I question the use of extracts. horrible. when we extract the active constituents and we want to use that as an antibacterial, like berberine.

Sebastian: Taking berberine out in isolation, for example.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: In isolation and then using loads of that question.

Sebastian: I question that, there's a totality of a herb, using, you know, I mean garlic for example, and is used as an antibiotic a lot, isn't it?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Exactly, exactly. but I think otherwise. Berberine is a good example. Berberine, any berberine containing herb. When we use the herb as a whole, it helps with the sort of biofilms in the gut. It's an overall anti inflammatory, it's a beta, so it helps remove toxins, right. So it has a whole effect. It's just that it's not, it's not wiping out the microflora entirely as when you take an antibiotic. and I think destroying the microflora with antibiotics, but also with stress and modern life is having huge implications, for all these chronic conditions that we are seeing. So many people come to, well, me as a herbalist, but more as a doctor, more in my, I work as a gp now, so I see 30 to 40 patients every day. And so many of those are people, especially younger people, but of all ages, with gut problems, with gut issues. So everyone seems to have a problem with their gt today that's because, you know, of course antibiotic use plays a role, but stress plays a huge role, diet plays a huge role. And then some of these conditions are being treated with loads of antibiotics because we isolate H. Pylori, helicobacter pylori or sibyl, right. Small overgrowth. So we treat those with antibiotics in mainstream medicine. and so it's a vicious cycle and these people continue presenting to us. and going back to your question about the herbal antibacterials, I don't know if the answer is using just sort of meat and only neat garlic. I'm not sure how people are responding to that. I'm more pro, complex formulas and.

Sebastian: Yeah, with, use the herbs in a blend, get the full diversity of the compounds in the plants at ah, relatively low doses. I know we were talking about using higher doses earlier for fever, but it's actually still very low doses in the sort of context of sort of pharmaceutical levels of drugs. But it's like this idea that herbs nudge the body into health rather than shove us into health, you know, I mean there are some herbs that are a bit more shovey and pushy on there, they're a bit more direct, that move the body into that direction. But herbs like yarrow, elderflower, I don't know if we haven't mentioned what else is at thyme, Oregon. holy basil tulsi. Some of these herbs are really very gentle, whereas you get, I don't know, I'd say berberine, goldenseal, ah, andrographis. These are a bit more pushy herbs. They're much stronger and short term only, really, and much, probably lower dose, unless you're really experienced in working with a herbalist. so that's part of the beauty of it really, isn't it, the range that you can blend something, and make it specific to the person. And I think that's where this role of preventative medicine really, really comes into the fore. You know, we, I don't know. You know, we buy our own clothes, we get clothes to fit who we feel we are, and we buy food to suit who we are as well. You know, part of us doing herb cast is to encourage people, to support people in their journey towards their best health. And I know we're biased, Amber, but, I can't think of a better thing to do than to go and see a qualified herbalist for your health and get a, ah, real constitutional check. And what would be perhaps the best foods, the best exercise. Absolutely. You know, stress relaxation, relaxation exercises for you and, and know which plants would be most suitable because everyone's got a pharmacy in their kitchen, really, don't they? Everyone's cupboard is filled with healing herbs. And everybody uses herbs every day, actually, without probably even realising it. and so I think that encouragement, is crucial. But obviously getting a cold or seasonal fever is one of an entry point for people into using natural remedies, isn't it? Because you're acutely ill, you probably tried a few things in the past and you'll sort of do slightly anything, won't you, when you're a bit ill. You want to be able to breathe, you know, you can't taste, you can't smell, you can't feel, you know, your life is, you're closed down, aren't you basically.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: And a lot of the mainstream pharmaceuticals that are available, ah, to treat as, you know, a seasonal bug, are not very effective at all. And that's, and so that's, it's a good, that's why, as you're saying, Sebastian, is a really good entry point. And it's a really good moment to encourage people to go and see a herbalist and people are desperate, people want help, people want resolution. So it's a really good point. And I find it now in my GP practice. They come back to me after a few days, after a week. Well, I'm still not bit. And I'm like, I know. What do you recommend? Well, I don't know. I cannot prescribe anything that I know will be helpful. And I say that because it's true. I have no idea what nucleic or anti catarrh is going to be, because they are not. So then I try and say, well, thyme and sage and ginger, and garlic, many people are very receptive to those things and to trying anything. So because they are so desperate, then they go back and then they'll try it. But horrible medicine, very good opportunity for herbal medicine with acute infections, because so many of the pharmaceutical drugs are not very effective at all.

Sebastian: Well, off the back of COVID I think there's been lots of research on certain herbs that I've heard about in hospitals in the UK, like elderberries being researched, echinacea, obviously, andrographis has got clinical trial going on for it. so that's super exciting. There's a slight sidetrack here, but I'm interested because you're in Spain, I know that you told me before that you became a herbalist first, and then you trained to be a doctor, which I think is a fascinating route into deeper medical understanding. And I'm just interested in if there's a difference between the Spanish approach to herbs than British. I know it's a very general question. It's probably a bit cheeky. I was wondering because it seems very difficult to get a hold of any herbs through the NHS. I think there's only one herb recommended by the NHS now, which is pelargonium, which we haven't mentioned, actually, for upper respiratory tract infections, because there's such a big need to not be prescribing antibiotics for viral infections. The big crisis with antibiotics. I'm just interested culturally, it feels very connected with food and nature, Spain, in the few times that I've been there, is that the case when it comes to taking herbs and is there a culture of using herbal medicines like that?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah, yeah, I think I would have said so. I was trained as a herbalist in the UK and I trained as a doctor in the UK. I've done all my training and practicing in the UK, although I was back and forth. I opened my practice in Spain right after I graduated and I was going back and forth, so I've kept it open in Spain but then I've trained and practiced in the UK and I came back sort of eight months ago and I thought it wasn't going to be the case, but actually I've realised that there is a, ah, sort of herbal shop, herbolario almost on each corner. They are very, very, very common where you go and get. So they've got dried herbs, small, tinctures, just sort of individual herbs, but it's very, it's not uncommon where people would go to a herbal shop instead of to a pharmacy to get things for a cold cystitis and things like that. So I do think there is, there is that. Whereas in the UK, I don't think you find a herbal shop on almost, it's straight, you know, you've got sort of Holland and Barrett and, so on, but they are not herbal shops. Sort of, yeah.

Sebastian: Lots of Chinese medicine in the UK in terms of access to herbs on the high streets.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: And actually, yes, you do have the Chinese.

Sebastian: Yeah, yeah, napiers, maybe. Napiers is a herbal shop or Neil's yard, there's these sorts of places, yeah.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: And, you know, one or two and. And not very cheap,

Sebastian: In Spain, are they? So they're getting like some herbs for an illness. It's like a herb through an illness. It's not. Is there actually a tradition of herbalism per se, that is alive and it's.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Not just folklore that's the problem. There is not the expertise. So people are. So they go to the shop, but there isn't the expertise, I would say, as there is in the UK. I think there is a stronger tradition of herbalism as a profession, whether it's, you know, formal, you are formally, trained or not, you know. But there is the tradition and the culture of herbalism as a profession, and there is the expertise. In Spain, that's not the case. So, the folklore has not been lost, but is in some more sort of remote towns. But there aren't herbalists as, ah, such, and then the doctors who are giving herbs or phytotherapists are not really trained and do not see herbs and herbalism in the same way as we do in the UK. So that's quite different.

Sebastian: It's sort of become fragmented, hasn't it, across lots of Europe, lots of different traditions, I think as modern medicine, in a way, has taken over. But it's interesting because it feels like from reading some of the other articles you wrote, and you wrote a great one on how using herbs as antibiotics can help doctors stop prescribing so many antibiotics. And a great one on mushrooms and reading them, I'm just like, how come this isn't, you know, how come this isn't everywhere, really? It really feels like a benefit for everybody.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: I know.

Sebastian: With, you know, going back to our topic a little bit and just your expertise on adaptogens and, you know, autoimmune conditions, maybe we should talk a little bit about atonics and some of those ideas in terms of when someone's, you know, you've diagnosed them and you've given them the initial diaphoretics and circulatory, stimulants, you're going to get their whole, ah, circulation open up, where, you know, how do you really rebuild someone's energy so that they're back to their vital, true, vital self?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: M. I use mushrooms a lot. I use reishi cordyceps a lot. I use withania ashwagandha a lot. Rhodiola licorice, if it's not contraindicated. I really like licorice. So adaptogens and mushrooms. Astragalus as an immune modulator, that isatonic. I use buprenorphine as a chi tonic for the kidneys and regimen. So I combined reghmania and buprenorphine to restore the adrenal glands, and to work on the kidneys as well and build up energy from there. so I use that combination a lot, for chronic fatigue and just to replenish someone's, vitality.

Sebastian: They're complaining of tiredness and. Interesting. And I like all of those herbs a lot as well. I was wondering, how do you use it? I was going to ask, how do you use reishi and cordyceps differently? Because there's so much information about mushrooms, they seem to be like, I don't like it when something sounds like a panacea, just a bit too good to be true. But obviously, the research and the history of use of ratio and cordyceps is pretty phenomenal. How do you differentiate in using those? Because, they're both talked about for immunity, aren't they? But what's that?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: They are for immunity. I've used cordyceps a lot. For respiratory health, in particular, both reishi and cordyceps. I do use them for lung, ah, restoration, if you like. I've supported many patients with bronchiectasis, the extagnation of mucus, really, in the lungs, but then the lungs, and the microbiome of the lungs, and the immunity of the lungs becomes completely out of balance. So I've used them loads in those cases, and patients have improved a lot. how do I distinguish, I do use reishi, so probably reishi and cordyceps are the ones that I use the most, with a contraindication of cordyceps not to be used in sort of hormone dependent cancers. So prostate cancer, breast cancer, you know, I'm wary.

Sebastian: Did you say in hormone dependent cancer?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Hormone dependent cancers, yeah, the cordyceps. but, I don't use them as a panacea at, all. No. but, I use them in capsules, not in a tincture form. I know some herbalists use them in a tincture form, but I use a double distraction, in a powder, in a capsule.

Sebastian: Interesting. They're like a whole subculture of knowledge of the mushrooms, aren't they? It's almost like, I mean, as they are another realm in nature, in a way. They are these mysterious things.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Exactly.

Sebastian: So they're a very exciting contribution to the materia medica, aren't they? In more recent years, I think, for western herbalists and, for our clients, and particularly, I agree, upper respiratory tract allergies. And in Chinese medicine, is used for the spirit, is used for the Shen is one of those mushrooms that's used to help you feel present and that you're right there in the moment, which is what you need to be healing.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Exactly. That's very interesting. Yeah.

Sebastian: Oh, well, you've mentioned so many great herbs and so many interesting ways of approaching this condition that we all get. All of us, unfortunately, are going to get a cold and a fever in a life. Hopefully not all of us are going to get any long term condition, off the back of it. But, we definitely don't want to be getting too many infections and fevers. You know, it's not good to get Covid too many times, not good to get flu too many times. So this preventative medicine message is just so crucial. And I think, just including some of these herbs in your daily lifestyle as you move into seasons where there's more risk, drinking thyme tea, rosemary tea, lemon balm, just as part of your daily, daily routine. Ginger tea, of course. it's just a good way to keep your epithelium, your lining in your airways, all healthy. So I really, really enjoyed the conversation. And is there anything else, is there anything you'd like to say to people, a message, would you like to give them a message?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Not, really, you know, that get to know your herbs, use your herbs as preventatives. synergy is very, I think synergy is very important. So combining the herbs, interconnectedness is really important in her medicine and in life. So working in synergies is very important. And I like that.

Sebastian: It's true. Using the combination of things to get strength back, stronger together. And I just remember something from reading your bio that you've worked maybe some time ago, I'm not sure what it was, but with herbalists without Borders, Calais, talking of synergy and working together, there seems to be quite a lot of community spirit amongst lots of herbal groups. And was that going into some of the refugee camps in Calais and setting up a herbal, that's right. First aid place or first aid?

Dr. Amparo Aracil: First aid and acute medicine. So again, loads of what we've been talking about, with the ginger, the elderberries, the echinacea and all that, for acute conditions. But yes, trying to offer some support and solidarity for people migrating, which is very relevant nowadays, especially with the current political climate showing solidarity.

Sebastian: And the herbalists at that borders are still active, are they? And they go to different.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah, they still go monthly. So roughly, I think they are still going every month and providing loads of support and acute, herbal medicines.

Sebastian: amazing people.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Yeah.

Sebastian: I mean, it's very humbling to hear about people going into, that's not quite war torn place, but it is a place of severe social challenge. And offering to help people in a desperate situation sounds like a brilliant thing. So look up herbalists without borders, if you can, and read, Doctor Amparo’s articles on herbal reality. I'd really recommend it. You've written about four or five articles, and if you read those four or five articles, they're like a recipe for a healthy life, basically. You can follow those good things if you're lucky enough to be able to include them. they're really valuable. They're really valuable. And if you're a doctor listening, do pick up on some of the insights here, because truly valuable for your clients help. And, I loved meeting and speaking, and thank you for sharing, sharing all your wisdom and for all you do for our herbal community. So, we'll put this out there in a few weeks and look forward to people getting the benefit from it. So, take good care.

Dr. Amparo Aracil: Take care. Thank you.

Sebastian: You've been listening to the herb cast, the podcast from Herbal reality. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If so, perhaps you'd like to leave us a rating that'd really help us to spread our message for Herbal health. We hope you'll join us again for the next episode. And in the meantime, if you'd like a few more herbal insights from us, do have a look@herbalreality.com. or learn more from us via Instagram, where we're at herbal reality, and we're on Twitter and Facebook, too. We'll be back with another episode of the Herb cast soon.

Sebastian: Do thanks for joining you. Our.