Herbs for the kidney and urinary system with Dr. Sally Moorcroft

Healing Herbs for Urinary Health: A Herbcast Journey

Sebastian: Hello there. Welcome to the herbcast, the podcast from herbal reality, delving into the plant powered world of herbalism. So, do you know your echinacea from your eleutherococcus, or your polyphenol from your polysaccharides? Whether you're a budding herbalist, an inquisitive health professional, or a botanical beginner, herbcast is here to inform and inspire you on your journey to integrating herbs in our everyday lives. So settle down, turn aside, and let's start today's episode of the herbal reality herbcast.

Simon: Welcome once again to our, uh, Herb cast, everyone. Uh, today is a really exciting conversation about urinary tract infections and kidney function, uh, an area that we often overlook or sometimes feel we're a bit short of, uh, tools for. Um, we want to take a broad look at this, and I'm really happy to welcome Doctor Sally Moorcroft to this conversation. Herbal practitioner. But obviously a lot more besides. You've got an interesting backstory, Sally, so maybe you can introduce yourself and how you got to this place.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, thank you, Simon.

Sally Moorcroft: So thank you for asking me to come onto the podcast. It's a real pleasure. And, um, yeah, I have kind of, I found my way into herbs, sort of, um, well, I suppose everybody has their own story, don't they? But mine really started when, before I went to medical school. So, um, I just worked as a nanny, actually, for a year in drone Provence, which just, I just answered an advert. I went out there as a gap year, really, and spent a year living with a family who I didn't really know before I went, but actually were working in an anthroposophical school, so actually used all anthroposophical medicine, and that included lots of herbs and homeopathy. And as part of the family, I was just really introduced to it then, so, and actually also the culture in.

Sally Moorcroft: That area of France, the herbs are.

Sally Moorcroft: Very ingrained into the culture.

Sally Moorcroft: It's a big area for sort of.

Sally Moorcroft: Organic and biodynamic farming. And we were living in a valley with the lavender, so you would see the lavender being harvested. And, you know, my walks every day were in the lavender fields, and it was, and also I around the house, we had lots of wild thyme growing, so I just got really immersed in it. And that was sort of my first introduction was living there. And then I went off to medical.

Sally Moorcroft: School, following a fairly normal, conventional path, really. I was planning on going into GP.

Sally Moorcroft: Training, um, but through my studies, I went to different places.

Sally Moorcroft: I did one of my electives in.

Sally Moorcroft: Uh, my fourth year at medical school, I went to Australia and I ended up in an aboriginal health centre where we were looking. We went out into the bush, really. And so I sort of tagged along with some of the elders going out into the bush and learned about some of the bush medicines. And so that was really interesting. And then I spent another elective working in India.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, so had more introduction in India.

Sally Moorcroft: To homeopathy, which is very big there, and ayurvedic medicine.

Sally Moorcroft: So I was kind of already interested.

Sally Moorcroft: I had an allotment, I was growing lots of vegetables, so. And then I had some health problems myself. So, um, I sort of started looking at options for treating myself, really.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, and I think from there it.

Sally Moorcroft: Just kind of my interest grew. I remember then, even then, I had a restarted reading a book about TCM medicine. And so I was kind of looking at lots of different ways of approaching medicine. Um, and then I worked in the hospital for several years, so I was just doing general medicine. I worked in neurology, which obviously we're going to be talking about bladder and kidneys today. So I did some work there and I, uh, kind of knew that now my eyes were open to all this other way of doing things. It was very difficult.

Sally Moorcroft: I just felt like a round, round.

Sally Moorcroft: Peg in a square box, you know, I was taking my chamomile tea to work.

Sally Moorcroft: It was a long time ago.

Sally Moorcroft: Things were not very accepted back then. I was also interested in the microbiome. So I started looking at research into using, say, uh, for some of our patients with clostridium. Difficult trying to introduce this into ward round meetings. It wasn't going down very well.

Sally Moorcroft: So I.

Simon: When was this, Sally?

Sally Moorcroft: This was 25 years ago.

Simon: Yeah. So you were really ahead of the curve, so they wouldn't.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, it was not going down very.

Sally Moorcroft: Well, and I kind of felt like.

Sally Moorcroft: I can't do anything, you know, this is not the right place. I can't. I just felt like I couldn't change anything. It's a really hard system to make any, even minor changes.

Sally Moorcroft: And so I'd sort of, you know, started feeling a little bit kind of.

Sally Moorcroft: I'm not in the right place, really. Um, and I wasn't quite sure where to go, but I actually, somebody gave me a leaflet for the, um, herbal medicine course at the scottish school of Herbal medicine. And this was before the Internet, so it was actually a leaflet that I then had to kind of find out about.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, so I went and met Keith and Maureen Robertson, and anyway, ended up going there.

Sally Moorcroft: So I went to Glasgow for four years and did the herbal medicine degree.

Sally Moorcroft: With them and that was really great.

Sally Moorcroft: So, and after that I kind of always thought I would go back to do GP and I would bring the herbs into my practice, but actually almost.

Sally Moorcroft: As soon as I left, finished my.

Sally Moorcroft: Degree and I just started a small.

Sally Moorcroft: Private clinic working in my parents, um.

Sally Moorcroft: House initially, which was at the back of the house, they made me a little kind of section that I could use. Um, I was just busy straight away, so within about three weeks I had 45 new patients. It just went crazy and it sort of didn't stop. That was 20 years ago, so I've had a busy clinic now for 20 years. I've done lots of additional training along the way, mainly led by patients where.

Sally Moorcroft: I felt like my gaps were, I.

Sally Moorcroft: Felt like I had a big gap in nutrition. So I've done lots of nutritional training, a um, lot of kind of in the functional medicine vein, but also um, sort of some ayurveda. I like to kind, I like to sort of span a lot of different ways of looking at the body because I think everybody's different. Some people, one system fits other people. It's really good to have a different.

Sally Moorcroft: Head where you think, okay, that is.

Sally Moorcroft: A better system for you. So I use, um, I did TCM training, um, with dermatology, uh, that was really helpful, just using the chinese herbs in those cases, particularly helpful. Um, I did medical acupuncture training, which.

Sally Moorcroft: So I've used that, I use that a lot for pain management, arthritis, so.

Sally Moorcroft: I'd often do herbs and acupuncture. Uh, then I did the five years MF home training in Bristol with um, what was the Portland Centre of integrated.

Sally Moorcroft: Medicine now is the national, um, center.

Sally Moorcroft: Of integrative medicine and I teach there as well. So I've stayed in quantum Bristol and you know, that's really nice to have that contact. So I did the MF home with them and now I teach herbal medicine on the um, diploma of integrative healthcare, which is a really great master's course.

Sally Moorcroft: I one of the core tutors there.

Sally Moorcroft: And do, and have done the herbal medicine module and then in my practice it's kind of evolved over the years. So I was very general to start with and enjoyed seeing general patients, but I have definitely tailored in probably the last five or six years, particularly mainly by, I've just seen lots, you know, lots of the same cases. So it's ended up being mainly women's health, particularly menopause, perimenopause, and complex hormone problems. So I do see lots of people with endometriosis and polycystic ovaries and complex menopause problems.

Sally Moorcroft: And then to kind of go into that, because I've gone into that, I've done my M bio.

Sally Moorcroft: I use the bioidentical hormone, so I did the training with marine Gluck to offer those. And I'm doing my functional medicine certification with IFM. So I've just finished all the modules, and I'm doing a certification next year.

Simon: You don't stop learning. Well, your caseload is going to be relevant for our conversation today, isn't it? Because we are talking pelvic health in.

Sally Moorcroft: A broader sense, aren't we?

Simon: So I was just introducing by saying, on one hand, we think we've got a few handles on urinary infections and, uh, urinary problems, but kidneys tend to be a little bit more troublesome for us as a concept, as an organ, as a treatment. Um, uh, strategy. Let's work our way around the whole kidney and urinary tract. Um, you obviously had some, um, training in the chinese approach. Obviously, what they talk of as kidneys is different from what we talk of as kidneys, but it also they have bladder, don't they, the concept, which is closest to our, uh, urinary tract things. And they have their own views about the links between that and other parts of our health. So you've probably got a broad range of, uh, influences on this conversation, don't you?

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, I do, and I've used different methods over the years. Um, I think for most practitioners, there's always a little bit of nervousness around kidneys, aren't there? So you and I know we talked about this when we were getting ready for the podcast, and I suppose over.

Sally Moorcroft: The years, I've felt very, got comfortable.

Sally Moorcroft: With treating sort of urine infections and.

Sally Moorcroft: Found that responds really well to herbs.

Sally Moorcroft: And is a fantastic way of avoiding excessive antibiotics and giving people empowerment to have something, you know, they can keep at home and it's in the cupboard, and when they get the first sign, they've got something they can use.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, so I, that's something.

Simon: We'll talk about what they are later.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: So that I feel like is kind of, you know, really, it's a way.

Sally Moorcroft: That herbs can be really helpful. The, the other probably angle that I've looked at more recently in terms of.

Sally Moorcroft: I, uh, seen lots of people with.

Sally Moorcroft: Women'S health problems is the effect of hormones on that system and the changes that happen around menopause, which um, um, you know, is interesting and also can cause a lot of distress for people and probably isn't very well talked about. You know, you, it's probably not something that is up on the top lists.

Sally Moorcroft: Of people's menopausal symptoms, but actually can.

Sally Moorcroft: Cause a lot of distress again. Um, and then I suppose recently I've also started, I do a lot of work with, um, sort of microbiome, and.

Sally Moorcroft: We partner, as our clinic, we partner.

Sally Moorcroft: With, um, in vivo and work really closely with them and use a lot of their microbiome testing. Um, and they've just introduced a bladder microbiome test, which, um. So I'm kind of, I suppose at the moment I'm quite interested more recently looking at the connection between the gut microbiome and the bladder, the bladder's own microbiome, and with the vagina as well, because I see lots of women with.

Sally Moorcroft: Like, vaginals infections or atrophy or issues.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, regarding, you know, the menopause changes around the vagina, but that often affects the bladder as well. So.

Sally Moorcroft: Absolutely.

Sally Moorcroft: That's probably where I've kind of steered into more recently.

Simon: Um, well, it's very interesting. I mean, I'm sure we'll pick this up in a moment, but, uh, some of my own work on the microbiome, the kidney and urinary consequences of dysbiosis that were early picked up on. And, uh, you know, the connection between what happens in the bowel and the urinary tract is clearly very well established now.

Sally Moorcroft: Yes, m. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

Sally Moorcroft: And we've got this, and I think with the herbs, we've got this interesting reflex reaction as well, haven't we? With the way that sometimes herbs, um, also affect the gut and then have this reaction in the bladder too, and how you can use those. So, so it's just how it all ties together. It's really interesting. I mean, I could lead that one of my cases maybe.

Simon: Well, I was going to say, this gets down to the nitty gritty. So where would you like to start with an example?

Sally Moorcroft: Well, maybe I'll mention that then, because I brought, so I brought three cases when I was looking through, I was.

Sally Moorcroft: Thinking, okay, what shall I bring? And trying to, something that's going to.

Sally Moorcroft: Be interesting and also quite relevant. So, um, I mean, over the years, I've seen different, you know, there's been some really complex. I mean, the other one that I could have brought was a prostate cancer man, but it was a very complex one. But that just sufficed to say with that one that he did really well. He was a terminal, he was a palliative care, he refused chemo and really, uh, just wanted things for supporting quality of life. Um, and had been given sort of six months.

Sally Moorcroft: But actually, the herbs, the, the herbs.

Sally Moorcroft: Was, were fantastic in that instance, in terms of improving his quality of life and symptoms. And he lived another 18 months.

Sally Moorcroft: And so I have used them in other cases, but that was a massive.

Sally Moorcroft: Case and it was really complicated.

Sally Moorcroft: So I tried to pick, I, uh.

Sally Moorcroft: Tried to pick more simple ones. So this lady I bought because I'm really interested because I've just used the urinary ecologics test on her for the first time. I've used this microbiome testing from in vivo. And she was, um, so she's a lady of 37. She came because she had bladder instability problems, so having lots of frequency and urgency, which started after pregnancy. So she's got two children, age three and six. And it happened, um, after her second child. So three years ago started. She's seen the urologist and he'd sent her for some pelvic floor physio, which has helped, but she's still got really bad symptoms. So, um, I haven't seen her in.

Sally Moorcroft: Terms of follow up to a conclusion yet. So this is early days, but it.

Sally Moorcroft: Was just interesting what came upon the test. So her other relevant history is that.

Sally Moorcroft: She'S got very heavy periods from which she's gotten.

Sally Moorcroft: She keeps getting anaemic. She also did have quite traumatic births in that she had forceps onto, um, with both labours and lots of tears and with this kind of feeling of frequency and urgency. She's had occasional antibiotics. She said she feels like she's there.

Sally Moorcroft: All the time, like this tenderness, super pubic tenderness, going, you know, nocturia.

Sally Moorcroft: Uh, she feels like there is a mild infection in the background all the time. Um, and she's also quite stressed and busy. She works full time, she's got two small children, she's got quite a demanding job. So I just did some initial tests with her. I sent her for a pelvic ultrasound. We did some blood switch, showed that she's anemic again. Her ferritin is 10.4, so very low. Um, her vitamin D was low as well, b twelve was low.

Sally Moorcroft: So I think, um, and she was anemic. So in terms of the fatigue, there's.

Sally Moorcroft: Quite a lot going, you know, there's a lot of reasons why she's feeling tired.

Sally Moorcroft: And then, um, I did a dutch.

Sally Moorcroft: Test on her which is like a.

Sally Moorcroft: Really useful hormone test which showed estrogen dominance.

Sally Moorcroft: So she's not, she's not really clearing her estrogen very well. And so we've done some initial work. We worked, I did quite a bit of work with her on nutrition in terms of blood sugar balance and increasing iron rich foods.

Sally Moorcroft: And, um, then some initial supplements to help.

Sally Moorcroft: So just some vitamin d and iron. And I use, um, progesterone cream on her as well, actually, just to try and help support this, um, hormone balance. And then we've been working on estrogen clearance, which is mainly through food at the moment.

Sally Moorcroft: Um.

Simon: Um, what, what do you, what do you do? What do you mean by that? Uh, how do you approach estrogen clearance then?

Sally Moorcroft: Mainly supporting the liver. So she's doing like green smoothies, linseeds.

Sally Moorcroft: Yes.

Simon: And, uh, uh, because the liver is the, is responsible for clearing the estrogen.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah. So I'll usually go for liver or gut, you know, because often it's to do with the, um, the way that the gut's clearing oestrogen as well.

Sally Moorcroft: So.

Sally Moorcroft: But I think, uh, we were doing this in the microbiome testing.

Sally Moorcroft: I've actually now she's just doing a.

Sally Moorcroft: Gut microbiome test as well, because of what came up on this one. So I think we might end up.

Sally Moorcroft: Going down that line to help get to the root cause of the hormone.

Sally Moorcroft: Problems, because I'll often find there's, um, a gut dysbiosis, which is driving the estrogen dominance as well. That's. I always put some liver support in and the liver herbs as well.

Sally Moorcroft: So that's often the kind of way of, um, I end up treating that.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, so what was really interesting was with the urinary ecologics test, is that she came back with no lactobacillus at all.

Sally Moorcroft: So this is really important for balancing.

Sally Moorcroft: And it's really interesting. Look at the genetics.

Sally Moorcroft: So there's different strains of lactobacillus that.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, people have, and their genetic variabilities.

Sally Moorcroft: But it, and it's related to propensity.

Sally Moorcroft: To urine, infections and things, obviously. So, um, but she didn't have any. So I think that was significant with her.

Sally Moorcroft: It's, um, you know, it is important.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, and she had high levels of enterococcus faecalis, which is significant and can come from the gut.

Sally Moorcroft: So that was quite interesting.

Sally Moorcroft: It can cause utis. She's got very high levels of it.

Sally Moorcroft: It's probably coming from her gut as well.

Sally Moorcroft: So, and then she had some other organisms, which I always find really hard to say these names. When I wrote them down, I thought.

Sally Moorcroft: How am I going to say this?

Sally Moorcroft: Echinotignum scalae, I think, is how you say it.

Sally Moorcroft: Or are coccus urini, I think that's how you say. I'm not sure.

Simon: I don't.

Sally Moorcroft: I'm just saying them for that.

Simon: They have very, very polysyllabic names, don't they? This is thousands of species, so it's not surprising that they jumbled up.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, they do.

Simon: Not, not nice. Not, not nice ones is. That's basically what we're saying.

Sally Moorcroft: And interestingly, so, when I did the interpretation call after the test, um, so these two organisms are linked with bladder.

Sally Moorcroft: Frequency, um, and they're potential pathogens.

Sally Moorcroft: So the enterococcus faecalis is a pathogen. Um, these are the two potential pathogens. And she has got them in quite high numbers, too.

Sally Moorcroft: So that was interesting.

Sally Moorcroft: I've never done that testing before. Probably previously, I would have just treated with some herbs and been very kind of general with what I was doing. But this has given me useful information. And then looking into the research a.

Sally Moorcroft: Little bit further about the, uh, enterococcus faecalis, there's some interesting.

Sally Moorcroft: So it can induce biofilm formation, and it's a very virulent organism, often resistant to treatment.

Sally Moorcroft: So it's quite stubborn.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, but there is some research showing that thyme inhibits the biofilm formation. Um, and clove oil as well, actually, is also sensitive against it. So I think it's been helpful because it's helped me target.

Sally Moorcroft: So we're using.

Sally Moorcroft: So I'm using antimicrobials now.

Sally Moorcroft: She started on them alongside some lactobacillus, um, probiotics.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, and then we're also looking at.

Sally Moorcroft: Supporting the sort of, um, mucosa and.

Sally Moorcroft: The integrity of the membranes. So we've been looking at doing that in the gut.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, exactly.

Sally Moorcroft: Just so basically increasing, like vitamin a.

Sally Moorcroft: And C and zinc and vitamin D.

Sally Moorcroft: That was low when we tested it.

Simon: Did you always sort of consider the gut when even before you're doing these testings, I mean, when you were approaching something like this, you would go to the gut alongside.

Sally Moorcroft: That was kind of drilled into us at herb school. I think that one of the things.

Sally Moorcroft: I learned was always treat the gut.

Sally Moorcroft: First, and then I guess, as you do more of the functional medicine training.

Sally Moorcroft: That is the same. So it probably always.

Sally Moorcroft: I mean, sometimes it's a, uh, difficult. Sometimes there's a chicken and egg with hormones, because hormones are affecting the gut and with stress as well. Stress affects in the gut, the guts.

Sally Moorcroft: Affecting, um, you know, maybe mental health or hormones.

Sally Moorcroft: So, you know, there's this really kind of, um, circular connection between all of them. So sometimes I will come in at.

Sally Moorcroft: All of those, just with small interventions.

Sally Moorcroft: To just gently kind of nudge the.

Sally Moorcroft: System in all areas, because I feel.

Sally Moorcroft: Like, you know, okay, there's no good me putting lots of work in the gut. This person's still really stressed and their hormones are still completely out of balance.

Sally Moorcroft: So I.

Sally Moorcroft: But I just kind of often am sort of gently doing a little bit of work on this, a little bit of work on that, and then just kind of trying to help support the.

Sally Moorcroft: System in all different areas and then.

Sally Moorcroft: Be led by how well the treatment goes. So then maybe just kind of modify.

Sally Moorcroft: If I think, well, actually, you know, particularly.

Sally Moorcroft: Because it's really hard to get.

Sally Moorcroft: The gut to heal when everything else.

Sally Moorcroft: Is out of control. So I. I'm not strict about the.

Sally Moorcroft: Order, uh, but I would.

Sally Moorcroft: The gut would always be primary number one, and then the other bits will.

Sally Moorcroft: Just be depending on the person, just.

Sally Moorcroft: Either supportive or just gently trying to kind of.

Simon: Yeah. Take home message, isn't it? Always go to the gut, especially when you're dealing with urinary.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, well, this, this is, this is a really interesting instance.

Sally Moorcroft: I thought. So.

Sally Moorcroft: The other thing we've done with her, so I think just with the food she's doing, bringing in the fermented foods now, rainbow diet. So we're doing quite a bit with food with her, and then she's got.

Sally Moorcroft: Lots of antimicrobial herbs now, so I'll.

Sally Moorcroft: See how it goes. I mean, she was feeling better with.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, what we've done so far in.

Sally Moorcroft: Terms of energy, and her periods have lightened up. So I'm just really interested to see what happens.

Simon: So she didn't actually have, she didn't actually have a urinary infection itself. It was bladder irritability and so on.

Sally Moorcroft: Is that what we say? Yeah. Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: Well, that's the symptom she came with and she's. Yeah, she is testing negative when she's, uh, you know, her urine's being dipped. So it was bladder instability.

Sally Moorcroft: But I think that this, you know.

Sally Moorcroft: It'S hard if the enterococcus or a.

Simon: Sort of more broad based inflammatory condition, I presume.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, yeah, that's what I was.

Simon: What you would get. I mean, I will. I'm always struck by how small the pelvis is and how much is crowded in there. So there's a lot of jostling going on down there, isn't it?

Sally Moorcroft: Like, you know, like you say, it's hard to know. I'm not sure, but it's, I think by, by sort of covering the bases, we'll see whether I need to put more anti inflammatories in. I'm not sure, but we're kind of going from mucous membrane support and antimicrobials.

Sally Moorcroft: And the, uh, probiotics at the moment, so we'll just see how that goes. So, good start.

Simon: Are we moving on to the next story or.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, we can do. So this lady probably is a little bit more what we might just commonly see. I brought this case because it's something I've seen so many times, and it's quite a simple case of recurrent urine infections, but I think where herbal medicine.

Sally Moorcroft: Just is works so well.

Sally Moorcroft: And this is a lovely case because she did so well.

Sally Moorcroft: So.

Sally Moorcroft: And she'd had problems for a long time. She was 55 year old lady. She'd had recurrent urine infections since her twenties, but they got worse in the last four years and she was recently remarried.

Sally Moorcroft: And I think just having, um, have.

Sally Moorcroft: Having sexual intercourse again has triggered it all off. So it's, you know, it's really difficult.

Sally Moorcroft: She's met someone, she's really happy, she's.

Sally Moorcroft: Newly married, and now this problem's kind of spoiling everything. So she's finding that even though she's been put on constant antibiotics, she's still having symptoms. And even with changing the antibiotics, she's got constant sort of abdominal pain and tenderness and frequency. Um, and then if she stops the antibiotics, it's even worse. And then obviously, because she's having all these antibiotics, she's now getting thrush as well.

Sally Moorcroft: So everything's kind of all flaring up, really.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, and the symptoms she's getting is burning pain frequency. I do find interesting, as women get older, they tend to lose those symptoms, so they'll just end up with a frequency. And the number of people that I've.

Sally Moorcroft: Said, you know, that have come to.

Sally Moorcroft: Me, older women who've said, I've got frequency and nocturia, and then we've dipped and I found, actually they've got infections.

Sally Moorcroft: But they don't get any of the.

Sally Moorcroft: Burning or stinging anymore.

Sally Moorcroft: So.

Simon: Interesting point.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, it's interesting that I've noticed that seems to happen a lot, and especially then, as you go into more elderly women or elderly people, then it's often just confusion. That's the main symptom, you know, so.

Sally Moorcroft: Actually they don't, they just end up getting very confused.

Sally Moorcroft: And people, if even mistaken it for.

Sally Moorcroft: Dementia, I've seen that, you know, that they just get really, really confused. So I always think about it can.

Simon: Be quite dangerous of that very late age as well, can't it?

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah. Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: So that's always number one to think about. Um, so this lady, so she was having some supplements herself. She'd started on some lactobacillus, cranberry juice.

Sally Moorcroft: She was taking some uh, garlic and.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, some cod liver oil and glucosamine.

Sally Moorcroft: For some arthritis symptoms.

Sally Moorcroft: And the other significant thing about her was she had a lot of stress with her son who was living at home, who's got Asperger's and autism, m quite severe symptoms.

Sally Moorcroft: And he's kind of housebound.

Sally Moorcroft: Well, he doesn't go out of his.

Sally Moorcroft: Room, so, and she's quite worried about him. So there's quite a bit of stress.

Sally Moorcroft: And she's been a single moment, it's been an issue she's been dealing with a long time. So, so that's in the background, really.

Sally Moorcroft: So she had, so she had a.

Sally Moorcroft: Herbs, she had um, a tincture and.

Sally Moorcroft: A tea and uh, uh, some slippery arm capsules.

Sally Moorcroft: And we just talked about diet.

Sally Moorcroft: So this was quite a long time.

Sally Moorcroft: Ago, before I started doing any of the functional medicine testing. We were just talking about reducing more.

Sally Moorcroft: Acidic foods and spicy foods.

Simon: And so what do you mean by acidic foods? Just to clarify that, because people have different.

Sally Moorcroft: Yes.

Sally Moorcroft: So at uh, the time I've written in the notes, uh, citrus, rhubarb, um, tomatoes and spices.

Sally Moorcroft: So that's what I was saying to her.

Sally Moorcroft: And this was a lot, this was quite a long time ago. I saw this lady and then, so her herb, huh? She had, so she had a tinker.

Sally Moorcroft: Picture of echinacea, astragalus, althea, rad hypericum, scutellaria, parataria, agropyrans and turnera. So that was her tincture.

Simon: So you're actually supporting already a broader inflammatory and um, energy, even base there, weren't you with some of those? So you weren't just giving straightforward urinary antiseptics, you were, you were giving a broader modulator.

Sally Moorcroft: I think she needed it, definitely. Um, and I like, I like sort.

Sally Moorcroft: Of adding in things like the parataria as well, that I like those.

Simon: I haven't used that. So tell me more about parataria.

Sally Moorcroft: I don't know.

Sally Moorcroft: When we were, so when I was.

Sally Moorcroft: At scottish school, we did do the Girtian. It was uh, every herb that we did.

Simon: Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: We had to taste it. And as a class we sort of. It was really, uh, lovely. One of the reasons I wanted to go to scottish school.

Sally Moorcroft: So for each herb we would all.

Sally Moorcroft: Taste it and then we would just talk about, you know, how does that feel in your body and what, you know, kind of sensations. And it was nice, it was a really nice way of learning about all the herbs and that one. And I think we had Christopher Headley.

Sally Moorcroft: For this, um, module as well, which was lovely.

Sally Moorcroft: So all, ah, my notes are from.

Sally Moorcroft: Christopher Headley's notes that he taught us.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, and the parataria just came out.

Sally Moorcroft: As being very restorative, um, and nutritious. So part of the nettle family and.

Sally Moorcroft: Just that kind of very nourishing, but.

Sally Moorcroft: Specific for the, the kidneys and bladder, really.

Sally Moorcroft: So I think that's kind of always.

Simon: You might turn me onto it.

Sally Moorcroft: I think I just have, I have a strong memory of him talking about it. And so it's often one of my.

Sally Moorcroft: Favorite ones to put in for that. Um, so I think, and I'm kind of, I suppose often I often go to do, often kind of choose quite.

Sally Moorcroft: A lot of nourishing herbs as well because I feel like particularly nowadays, a.

Sally Moorcroft: Lot of people are quite depleted.

Sally Moorcroft: You know, we live very stressful lives. And that's probably one of the first.

Simon: He went to those rather than the small overt antiseptic ones, what, you know, Buku. Or.

Sally Moorcroft: She had that in her tea.

Sally Moorcroft: Actually.

Sally Moorcroft: She did have a tea as well. So she had a tea of zmaz.

Sally Moorcroft: Baku, calendula, gallium and vibascum. That was her tea? Yeah. Okay. So that was in there.

Sally Moorcroft: And then she had slippery owl.

Simon: You used to use the tea because it's got the volume. Is that one of your thoughts?

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, that was another thing that I.

Sally Moorcroft: Think we were, uh, taught was that.

Sally Moorcroft: Always put tea in because it makes.

Simon: People drink more nice water.

Sally Moorcroft: So, um, and then, and then sort of write, drink six cups a day. Or you know, like actually just trying to get people to have that volume.

Sally Moorcroft: So I kind of always do that. So I probably with the, even if it was acute urine infection, I give a tincture that's a bit more of.

Sally Moorcroft: A bullet, a tea, which is maybe.

Sally Moorcroft: A bit more gentle, but just tries to encourage.

Simon: Flushes it through.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, exactly.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, so she knew very well.

Sally Moorcroft: So after three weeks, no burning or.

Sally Moorcroft: Pain frequency improvement, no antibiotics at all. So basically no symptoms. And she stopped the antibiotics.

Sally Moorcroft: And, um, then she said she was.

Sally Moorcroft: Having some vaginal dryness.

Sally Moorcroft: So I just added in a cream.

Simon: So she was post menopause at this stage.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, she's 55, so she's, yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: So. And I find that's really important to treat that. So any woman sort of uh. Postmenopausal woman with recurrent infections, you really have to get on top of the vaginal because otherwise if the membranes are.

Sally Moorcroft: Irritated, then you just get into a.

Sally Moorcroft: Cycle of being more prone to getting the infections because I think the bacteria just track it, there's no barrier to stop them.

Sally Moorcroft: So if the area is irritated or very dry or atrophy, that's kind of.

Sally Moorcroft: A really important thing to address.

Sally Moorcroft: So I did give her just a.

Sally Moorcroft: Gentle cream, which is a fairly standard one that I use. I uh, sometimes change it a bit, but it's mainly the same. It's a chickweed, sometimes it's calendula and chickweed and sometimes comfrey, but often calendula and chickweed with marshmallow root and chamomile.

Simon: Glycerite, um, as a cream externally applied.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: So um.

Sally Moorcroft: And then there's.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, that's kind of a standard one. I mean there's some variations but that's what she had. Um. And that's it really. She did very well. So she had no more symptoms, no more antibiotics.

Sally Moorcroft: She.

Sally Moorcroft: I saw her for eleven months and.

Sally Moorcroft: Then the only change I made was.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, that she wasn't taking the tea. She said it was too messy and she didn't like it.

Sally Moorcroft: So I changed actually their formula, um.

Sally Moorcroft: Because I knew she wasn't taking it.

Sally Moorcroft: So um, I just kind of changed to be a formula that had more kind of, you know, that was more.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, balanced if she wasn't going to take the tea.

Sally Moorcroft: So we changed it to, so it.

Sally Moorcroft: Was echinacea astragalus, the althea rad hypericum skull cap. Then I put solid argo in um, agripyra and turnera Cmaz and calendula. And that was like, and that was her maintenance then.

Sally Moorcroft: So she's, she's she fine. She was uh.

Sally Moorcroft: She took that for years and then everything settled and she didn't need it again. But she basically didn't have, I think she had one more infection which was.

Sally Moorcroft: Caused by her, huh. Being very dehydrated because she, she was.

Sally Moorcroft: When she was working, she sometimes didn't take water bottle with her and, but as long as she was hydrated then.

Sally Moorcroft: That was all good.

Sally Moorcroft: So yeah, that was a nice, lovely.

Simon: Story and a good introduction to some of the herbs that are available for us, uh, in dealing with that sort of situation. Uh, and it's interesting that you didn't include some of the ones that come off the shelf sometimes in relation to urinary infections, you have a broader approach to that. So it's very, very helpful. Thank you.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, no, I think.

Sally Moorcroft: I think for sort of acute infections.

Sally Moorcroft: I'd probably still go for those.

Sally Moorcroft: But I think where there's more complex.

Sally Moorcroft: History, you know, that's where all these.

Sally Moorcroft: Other herbs sit, isn't it? You know, they've got all these other.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, yeah.

Simon: Gosh, we're getting through these very well and very, very informative as well. But it sounds. They might even have another story.

Sally Moorcroft: Have another story.

Sally Moorcroft: Should we do that?

Sally Moorcroft: Um, so it's a. It's a similar vein of postmenopausal women. Um, that's because that's what I do see lots of. So, but she's a little bit older, so she's 60. Um, and this case is more complex.

Sally Moorcroft: It's not quite as, um, sort, uh, of ideal outcome.

Sally Moorcroft: It's been a bit more difficult to manage. So that's sort of why I brought it as well, just to kind of.

Sally Moorcroft: Show you like how it.

Sally Moorcroft: It's sort of changed. So I've seen her more recently. Um, so she.

Sally Moorcroft: Again, she's got recurrent urine infections, so she has had them for the last five to six years, um, and has.

Sally Moorcroft: Been having five or six infections a year. And then when I saw her, she came to me. It's now all the time. So it's gone from being these occasional outbreaks to basically it's just constant.

Sally Moorcroft: And it has gone into quite bad.

Sally Moorcroft: Kidney infections quite a few times where she's been in hospital. So it's much, um, it's got really much worse. Um, and alongside it, she's also just been diagnosed with post infective colitis, so, which has been giving her really loose.

Sally Moorcroft: Stools, verging on watery up to sort.

Sally Moorcroft: Of twelve times a day.

Sally Moorcroft: So quite severe symptoms and alongside that.

Sally Moorcroft: Food, uh, intolerances, so particularly dairy and soya, make the diarrhea and abdominal cramping much worse. She's also got a mild prolapse and vaginal dryness.

Sally Moorcroft: So there's a whole.

Sally Moorcroft: You can see like this. All of these are going to kind.

Sally Moorcroft: Of pull together to make the area.

Sally Moorcroft: Very irritated and inflamed.

Sally Moorcroft: It's, you know, there's, there's lots going on, there's lots of reasons why she's obviously struggling.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, and I think all of this, the other thing with her is, again, she's had a lot of stress, but this is mainly from working. So she's very driven. She's an, um, educational consultant and does long hours, travels around the country, and is a bit of a workaholic.

Sally Moorcroft: Like, she's, she can't really relax. She's kind of, and even when she.

Sally Moorcroft: Does, when she's at home, she's just going to the gym or, you know.

Sally Moorcroft: She just, she's very busy.

Sally Moorcroft: Very, um, kind of always, yeah, always overstimulated.

Sally Moorcroft: She's not really relaxing very much.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, she's got quite a warm constitution as well, which is interesting.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, and also prone to sinus infections and seasonal rhinitis, um, occasional thrush, but not too bad, considering that she's had.

Sally Moorcroft: Quite a lot of antibiotics. Um, and so she's taking, she's taking cetirizine, which is antihistamine. She's on kefalexin now, broad spectrum antibiotic.

Sally Moorcroft: Which she's been on.

Sally Moorcroft: She's now on all the time.

Sally Moorcroft: She's on cranberry juice probiotics, psyllium husks.

Sally Moorcroft: Which have been helping with the colitis, and some digestive enzymes and a multivitamin. And before I saw her, she was, she'd been trying a low fodmaps diet.

Sally Moorcroft: And she's been having colonic irrigation and.

Sally Moorcroft: Having probiotic implants, which has actually helped a lot. So they've actually done, they have actually helped her.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, so she's, so that was good.

Sally Moorcroft: That was getting, that was helping. Um, and the antibiotics she's had now recurrent antibiotics.

Sally Moorcroft: She's had like, recurrent courses for ten.

Sally Moorcroft: Years, and now she's on a course every two weeks, which is a three day course.

Sally Moorcroft: So she's kind of almost constant.

Simon: Yes.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: So pretty much, uh, and sometimes having.

Sally Moorcroft: To take stronger ones.

Sally Moorcroft: So.

Simon: So her micro microbiome is obviously shot to pieces.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, it is. And I did do a stool test.

Sally Moorcroft: With her, um, which was interesting as well.

Sally Moorcroft: So, um, so I thought, yes, because of the colitis as well. And I've often found that with people with colitis, it's really worth doing a.

Sally Moorcroft: Microbiome test because, you know, you just can't guess.

Sally Moorcroft: You sort of think, oh, I know what it's going to be. You know, there's going to be this or that, and then you do the testing like, oh, it's completely wrong, actually.

Simon: It's not.

Sally Moorcroft: You, uh know, and even actually, I've had people with really bad ulcerative colitis.

Sally Moorcroft: That I've done thinking that it's all inflammation.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, and then we've done the test and, like, one man that I saw came back with very high candida. Um, and actually not really bad inflammation. Inflammatory markers were not too bad, but his candida was. And we actually treated the candidate and.

Sally Moorcroft: The colitis got much better.

Sally Moorcroft: So, uh, and he'd been put on steroids. You see, he'd had loads of steroids with colitis and steroid suppositories. So, uh, I think, you know, that that taught me. Don't assume, because, you know, it's very.

Sally Moorcroft: His symptoms are very similar, like, but.

Sally Moorcroft: Actually, when we'd done the testing, I.

Sally Moorcroft: Thought, you know, there's obviously his colitis there.

Sally Moorcroft: He has got colitis, but it's not that. That that's giving him all these terrible bloating and pain and all the other symptoms.

Sally Moorcroft: So, um, anyway, sidetrack. Um, so back onto this lady. So with her, with all of this irritation and inflammation, I, um, really wanted.

Sally Moorcroft: To put a lot of mucous membrane support in.

Sally Moorcroft: So she had some marshmallow root overnight.

Sally Moorcroft: Infusion, which I use quite a lot.

Sally Moorcroft: Which is just the root overnight infusion. Drinking two, three cups a day and.

Sally Moorcroft: Some slippery elm capsules.

Simon: She's. She's infusing it, you mean, so she puts it over in cold water or warm water?

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, just warm water. And leaves it overnight and then drinks it the next day.

Sally Moorcroft: And, uh, slippery elm capsules and, uh, some turmeric capsules.

Sally Moorcroft: And then she had a tincture.

Sally Moorcroft: So her tincture was a bit more.

Sally Moorcroft: Specific, like you said, it's got the book. So we've got the buku and the arctostaphyllus, uva ursi, and she's got, uh.

Sally Moorcroft: Agropyron and astragalus and echinacea.

Sally Moorcroft: She's also got some althea rad in the tincture as well, and chitauri root, which is another one that I use.

Sally Moorcroft: A lot for, for women.

Sally Moorcroft: Because it's cooling. I think that's why I like that. Uh, it's really cooling and demulcent and.

Simon: You said she was hot.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, exactly. Um, so, um, that was her first mix, and then she did the microbiome testing.

Sally Moorcroft: And in the meantime, she'd already also seen the urologist and had a cystoscopy.

Sally Moorcroft: And he put her onto more antibiotics. Um, so basically, I've seen.

Sally Moorcroft: I've seen her for years now.

Sally Moorcroft: We've been kind of, you know, we've.

Sally Moorcroft: Been doing well at times.

Sally Moorcroft: You've really got on top of it.

Sally Moorcroft: Then she'll get stressed, and then it will come back again, um, so we've tried different things. I found, um, you know, the testing was very helpful.

Sally Moorcroft: The testing showed that she's got quite.

Sally Moorcroft: A lot of sibo symptoms as well. So she had methano brevi, she had desult for vibrio, she had very little lactobacillus.

Simon: And, um, sibo means sibo.

Sally Moorcroft: Yes.

Simon: For clarification.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: Short, small intestine.

Simon: Bacterial overgrowth.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, exactly. And although doing a stool test like this is not definitive, it's not a diagnostic test for sibo, you just get suspicious. If you see the m methane producing bacteria like the methano brevi or the hydrogen sulfide producing ones like the desulfur vibrio, then you're kind of thinking it's quite likely.

Sally Moorcroft: I don't always run a sibo breath test. I'll sometimes just treat, um, mainly financial.

Sally Moorcroft: You think, okay, if you've done this test and we've got these organisms, it's fairly likely, am I going to change?

Sally Moorcroft: Is it going to change very much.

Sally Moorcroft: Me doing a breath test as well?

Sally Moorcroft: But sometimes we do do breath tests sometimes. But in this instance, um, it just.

Sally Moorcroft: Showed to me how out of kilter, you know, her gut's completely out of kilter.

Simon: Um, did her colitis symptoms change as you went through these treatments?

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: So that was, that totally was cured, really. That completely improved.

Sally Moorcroft: So that stopped all of that. She got back to really normal stools. She even managed to reintroduce some dairy. Um, she was going for normal bowel movement every day.

Sally Moorcroft: And that was really good, actually.

Sally Moorcroft: And I think that was all of the things we did. So she had her herbs.

Sally Moorcroft: She had, um, some really strong lactobacillus.

Sally Moorcroft: Probiotics culture, LG, the lactobacillus rhamnosus, which.

Sally Moorcroft: Has got most of the research on, um, and bifido.

Sally Moorcroft: Uh, and then she was rotating antimicrobials like oregon and berberine or the sibo, and we kept that mucous membrane supporting as well.

Sally Moorcroft: So with all of that, I mean.

Sally Moorcroft: The other thing that she found quite helpful was apple cider vinegar, which she.

Sally Moorcroft: Started taking, which seemed to be good as well.

Sally Moorcroft: So that remains really stable. And, um, even with busy at work, and the only time it flared up.

Sally Moorcroft: Again was when she went on holiday and she ate.

Sally Moorcroft: The soya issue did remain so she couldn't eat soya, and she ate some soya on holiday, and that seemed to trigger it all off. Um, but apart from that, if she was avoiding soya, she could manage. She managed goat's cheese she was managing.

Sally Moorcroft: A bit of dairy. Um.

Simon: It's a good point to make, isn't it, that sometimes patients bring us almost like a fatalist, you know, I'm never going to be able to have these foods again. I have to cut them out. When all you need to do, all you need to do is to change the environment in there and suddenly you can take the foods again.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah. I kind of remain hopeful that lots of people manage to do that. Not everybody. Um, and sometimes it's a tolerance thing, isn't it? I always say to you might be able to have it now and again as a treat, but you probably can't have it every day. So it's finding that tolerance for people.

Simon: Yes.

Sally Moorcroft: And it was different listening to your body.

Sally Moorcroft: You know, if you've had too much.

Sally Moorcroft: Then you need to have a break again.

Sally Moorcroft: Perfect.

Simon: Well, it's another. Another case where you've made the point that, you know, kidney urinary are so dependent on what goes on in the gut and their environments. I mean, there's another sort of general point. You know, we're actually, we're getting through this recording so well, so fast, we're going to have to start thinking up. But one of the points I often think about is that the kidneys got the job of cleaning up after, for example, liver detox. Often, we were told back in medical school, the kidney was the hand servant of the liver, essentially. The liver had a sneeze, the kidney caught a cold. Um, so presumably when you're wanting to reduce burdens on the kidney urinary tract, you're always looking at what's coming through from metabolism, from digestion, from liver function.

Sally Moorcroft: And so on as well, aren't you? I think that's, that's the thing, isn't it? You'll kind of constitutionally as well, sort.

Sally Moorcroft: Of understand if someone's, you know, I'll always do that assessment early on as to do. I think this is a depletion picture or an excess picture, just a very.

Sally Moorcroft: Simple, like, you know, in your mind, like, am I nourishing things here or am I trying to clear things, you know, and.

Simon: Yes, uh.

Sally Moorcroft: And that's really.

Simon: Or a bit of both.

Sally Moorcroft: Yes, yeah, exactly. Or sometimes a bit of both.

Simon: Life is always complicated.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: But I think if that, just that, and that's probably helped me such a.

Sally Moorcroft: Lot over the years, just that, uh, simple, you know, without getting too complex.

Sally Moorcroft: About things, but just that kind of understanding, like what, you know, is this purse, you know?

Sally Moorcroft: And if you do feel like there's this excess toxicity, or there's a heavy burden on the liver or, you know, I see it with the hormones as well. Like women with these massive high oestrogen levels and all this history with endometriosis and fibroids and breast cysts and you know, that estrogen is just not clearing at all that you have. You have to just start opening all the channels up.

Sally Moorcroft: Uh, because that's, you know, that's driving that. I mean, you know, that, you know.

Sally Moorcroft: That drives inflammation, doesn't it? You've got that whole high estrogen aromatase.

Sally Moorcroft: Inflammation cycle, which is really damaging. So it's.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, I totally agree.

Sally Moorcroft: You've got to just carefully open everything.

Sally Moorcroft: And then also support the lymphatics just to.

Simon: Yes, because that's the other thing about that.

Sally Moorcroft: Support the lymphatics and do that, too.

Simon: Well, of course, that's where things like pelvic exercises and breathing and so on can help, because they're helping to clear the junk out from that area that tends to build up. Aren't you?

Sally Moorcroft: Yes.

Simon: And sitting. Sitting in chairs might be one of the worst things ever for any urinary tract problem. Yeah.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, it's true, isn't it?

Sally Moorcroft: We should all be at those, um, bicycle desks.

Simon: Cycle while you work. I've got a sit up, stand up desk service. I sort of up and down when I'm working.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah, that's good.

Sally Moorcroft: A nutritional therapist. He works in the Netherlands. Well, I work with him.

Sally Moorcroft: He's always on his cycling desk.

Sally Moorcroft: It's a real thing over there, isn't it? Like, I just think we haven't adopted.

Simon: They do like their cycles. Well, this has been. This has been really, really, really informative, Sally, so thank you for taking us through these issues so clearly and so well. I think, uh, people listening to this will have really learned a lot. So we're really, really grateful if they've got any sort of final wrap up thoughts, you know, your own sort of conclusions, um, or one off suggestions.

Sally Moorcroft: Um, no, I think probably we've just.

Sally Moorcroft: Sort of covered it as we've been going along, really.

Sally Moorcroft: I suppose I was always taught, you.

Sally Moorcroft: Know, the one thing I suppose I have always thought, which is what we've talked about, is if you're going to use the stronger antimicrobials, just make sure.

Sally Moorcroft: You put that restorative, the nourishing restorative.

Sally Moorcroft: Herbs in as well.

Sally Moorcroft: I think that's probably the thing that I've kind of learned to do.

Sally Moorcroft: That makes a difference.

Sally Moorcroft: Yeah. Yeah.

Simon: Well, thank you for that. Um, we really have filled the time so well. So thank you again for joining this herb cast, and I'm sure you'll get a lot of plaudits from those who have listened to it. Thank you very much.

Sally Moorcroft: Sadly, you're welcome.

Sebastian: You've been listening to the herb cast, the podcast from herbal reality. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If so, perhaps you'd like to leave us a rating that really helped us to spread our message for herbal health. We hope you'll join us again for the next episode. And in the meantime, if you'd like a few more herbal insights from us, do have a look@herbalreality.com. Or learn more from us via Instagram, where we're at herbal reality, and we're on Twitter and Facebook, too. We'll be back with another episode of the Hubcastoo. Thanks for joining.