Herbs for the lungs and respiratory system with Rumana Zahn

Herbs for the lungs and respiratory system with Rumana Kahn

Sebastian: Hello there. Welcome to the Herbcast, the podcast from herbal reality, delving into the plant powered world of herbalism. So, do you know your echinacea from your eleutherococcus, or your polyphenol from your polysaccharides? Whether you're a budding herbalist, an inquisitive health professional, or a botanical beginner, Herbcast is here to inform and inspire you on your journey to integrating herbs in our everyday lives. So settle down, turn aside, and let's start, today's episode of the Herbal Reality Herbcast.

Simon: Well, welcome everybody. It's my real pleasure today to talk to a colleague I've worked with for some time now on payable pictures, Ramana Zahn. up in the north of England, northeast, I think. And who's joining us today to talk about herbal approaches or other approaches, but natural approaches, let's say, to their respiratory system and the lungs and respiratory system. So, welcome, Ramana, and thank you for joining us. Can you tell us a little about yourself and your backstory and how you came into this world, how the herbal work?

Ramana Zhan: Thank you Simon. Yes, I'm delighted to be here. thank you for inviting me along. I started as a herbalist all, many years ago. Now I've been a practitioner for over 30 years and I, I'm based in the northeast of England. I started off as a microbiologist as testing food and water in labs. and yeah, like with many herbalists, I had a health issue at the time and I looked at my options and I didn't like what I was presented with at the time. So I wanted to know what other options there were available for a personal health issue that I had at the time. And it was, yeah, that was, that like opened up so many doors, realising that there was so much more to healthcare than, you know, the normal, pharmaceutical approach that was available to me at the time.

Simon: So 30 years ago, what was there available to learn where you were?

Ramana Zhan: Yes, it was very challenging at that time because there wasn't, a lot around at that time, so you had to kind of be in the know. And luckily I had quite wonderful, teachers, really, so that I came from the, I started with the school of natural healing with Richard Schultz. And I was very, very keen to kind of know much more because he integrated a lot of naturopathic approaches as well as the herbal medicine side. So it was quite a broader approach. But I mean, he was quite, yeah, quite extreme in his approaches at times. But yeah. Very, very fascinating.

Simon: So you learned broader naturopathic principles, ah, from the start, more than just the nibs?

Ramana Zhan: That's correct, yes. Yeah. And it was how we applied the herbs for different conditions, and how we needed to hold the patient through that in other ways, either nutritionally or, with hydrotherapy or just to support, mentally as well. So it's using a very integrated approach.

Simon: Good. And have you been in practise more or less since then?

Ramana Zhan: Yes. I mean, I started off early on with, going down the road of other modalities. So I started with, nutrition, kinesiology, naturopathy. So I studied in a lot of different, modalities and it was great, exactly what I wanted to do. So, I ended up with, many qualifications and really trying to use it more as a toolbox and, to help bring the right tool out when I needed it. So it was more working with what the patient needs.

Simon: Yes. I gather you got a fairly busy practise now, so.

Ramana Zhan: Yes, he's very busy.

Simon: You have plenty of track and the track record to fall back on.

Ramana Zhan: Yes. I have to say it surprises me because the northeast isn't known for it healthy diet or its healthy way of life. So, yeah, it's wonderful that, I've been thriving up here in the northeast. there's not many practitioners like me up here, but, yeah, it's nice to have a, thriving. Quite.

Simon: Thank you for sharing that expert, that background and experience with us. We're, going to talk about lungs and respiratory conditions now. as you said, you're a microbiologist, so you probably have a few little insights for us on how the western approach, the approach that you came from, m meshes or not with the natural remedies and, natural approaches that you use. How do you see the lungs and respiratory system in your work? Do you get a knot?

Ramana Zhan: Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the top conditions that I see in my practise and obviously wintertime is very predominant. And, yeah, it's one of the main systems of the body that, is fundamental, of course, because that's where we breathe. We take the breath of life and it's our connection to life and it's, an organ and a system that can often go wrong because of our environment for many reasons, really. And it's. Yeah, it's when, when you've got a healthy pair of lungs, it really feels wonderful, doesn't it, that you really connect with the world and you really feel alive. It's, it's when you have a thriving pair of lungs, it's just wonderful. And same with, you know, when you're doing sport or fitness, it's, it's that real charge that you have that keeps you in a joyful state. I think it's no wonder why chinese medicine always talks about the lungs and.

Simon: Being joyful and almost a sign of vigour, isn't it? I think it's where China, where the idea comes from, you can measure the qi by the strength of the voice.

Ramana Zhan: Yes. Yeah.

Simon: So that's when it's good. But there's lots of reasons, as you say, when it isn't so good. Well, and I assume northeast you get a fairly sharp wind off the North Sea at times. So winter must be particularly challenging, as you say.

Ramana Zhan: It is, it is. And we have our fair share of lung issues up here with coughs, colds, flus, pneumonia, you know, we have them all up here too. So it's. Trying to keep a healthy set of lungs all through the year, particularly at winter time, is really important. So I get to see m my practise is very much focused on people that are suffering chronic conditions. So over the years it's become that I've specialised in that so often multiple conditions, chronic conditions have been set for a very long time or people needing extra help and support on difficult situations. So I do get to see people that are quite that may have come with previous conditions like tb or pneumonia where there's been damage to the lungs. So they need quite a lot of support, ongoing support. And they don't want to continuously take antibiotics whenever they know that there might be an infection coming or know they're heading towards winter and they feel that they just need that extra strengthening protocols to get them through the winter without any difficulties. And then I get patients that often may pick up something and because there is a weakness there, so they need that. Ah, support. And herbs have been really wonderful in that, I have to say. They, they've been remarkable support, and a clutch for a lot of people to, to try and get through the winter months. Well, as we know, colds and flus don't happen just in the winter, but you know, predominantly they do advertise very much things.

Simon: Do you have a story that you can tell us as an illustration some of the work you do and we can use that as a template for further, all the same things?

Ramana Zhan: Yes, certainly. So maybe I can talk about a patient. She's in her early, seventies she had tb when she was young. And she's had a history of lung m problems. And year after year she's often had some form of cold or flu and it will go down to her lungs. So she gets a lot of coughs, colds. and she's obviously very concerned about going into pneumonia because she's had pneumonia a couple of times as well. So she has a kind of. Well, she does have a weakness there. And she has asked me for regular support to get her through the wintertime. And she's a regular user, ah, of hubble medicine. And I think what might be good is to give you some examples of when she came last, and particularly last year. she had a persistent cough and she said she wasn't diagnosed with COVID at the time. it's always difficult to tell because some, sometimes you can get false positives. So we weren't quite sure what exactly the full diagnosis is. I do use some testing in my practise, blood testing. but I also use other modalities as well. So I have the alternative as well, such as kinesiology, iridology, cyanic medicine. So there's other modalities that I use in my practise for assessment. so she presented an infection at the time she was coughing, and she had green phlegm. So I prescribed her two combination formulas. One was sweet wormwood, artemisianua andrographis and licorice. So three very potent herbs, that are very antibacterial, antiviral, anti parasitic. So that was quite a strong formula that I wanted to give her for clearing any underlying infections that were there, that might have been there. And the second formula that I prescribed her, was a little bit more of the support side. So that included calendula, figwort, valerian and sweet wormwood. And in that, there were other issues that I was trying to support her with because she was struggling with joint pain, she was not sleeping. She was also experiencing restlessness. So it was to work on slightly different symptoms. So the idea was to clear any underlying bugs, and then to support the organs and internal body systems. And I really like the herbs. artemisianua, you'd be aware of, is quite predominant, in supporting most of the coronavirus family. And it's been studied as well in, COVID infections. Actually. On a side note, you might be interested to know that Madagascar actually produces a drink for that particular condition. They actually used it and made a drink out of it, during the COVID infection, time. So, yeah, most of the studies were coming out of China and Mexico. Also did a study on, sweet wormwood.

Simon: It was induced. So, more ears. Tell me, tell me more. I mean, what's your experience of using it? how do you find it working with you?

Ramana Zhan: Well, obviously a lot of people have cottoned onto it because it's certainly been, in demand, through the dispensary. so, yeah, people are aware that it has an effect with the coronavirus family. So it's very good. The studies on it have shown that it really helps immune modulation. So it works on various stages of the immune system. And particularly it has been studied to reduce the cytokine storm that you would get during a COVID infection. So it minimises that. And the other aspect was that in the research that they found that it actually reduced the duration of the infection. So it seemed, got through it much quicker.

Simon: Unlike the attempts to get rid of, for example, malaria infections, infestations. Do you need to keep with artemisia annua for a longer period of time than other remedies to finish the job, or is it just enough to kick start the process, the, defensive processes?

Ramana Zhan: It depends on the individual, as is always the case. I think it all depends on, the history of the patient and how they respond to the herb. I always have to look at each individual case on its own merits. But generally speaking, generally, I would give it for a longer duration. It does have immediate effects with some people. Most of the studies that I know that I've looked at, and certainly my own clinical experience has shown that you can give it in a t form or tincture form. And, yeah, it sort of kicks in quite quickly. I've been surprised at how quickly it can start having a response.

Simon: it's a nice bit for anything else.

Ramana Zhan: Yes, it is a very strong, as you said, a very strong anti malarial. So it has been seen to work in similar fashion to the, COVID infections as well.

Simon: You had the andrographis in there as well.

Ramana Zhan: Yes, that's what I was coming on to, the andrographis as well. And that that was studied in Thailand, actually, they confirmed it as a herb that was, useful for the anti inflammatory effects of, coronaviruses. So. Yes, and it's extremely bitter, actually. This whole formula is extremely bitter.

Simon: Yeah, normally keep the grapes, they're taking herbal medicine.

Ramana Zhan: Yes, they certainly do. it's called the king of bitters for that precise reason. So, yeah, and obviously the licorice gives it a little bit of sweetness, but it's still very bitter.

Simon: yeah, I mean, licorice is such a wonderful remedy for the lungs itself.

Ramana Zhan: Yes, absolutely. Licorice is wonderful in so many ways. Very supportive for the lungs, but it also helps the other organs as well. It helps the digestive system, and it's so good for the circulation and supporting the hormonal, parts of the body as well.

Simon: I've often noticed that the lungs and the digestive system, obviously they're embryologically linked anyway, but the remedies for them overlap so much, don't they?

Ramana Zhan: They do, they do. and it's interesting, if we get onto the other case that I was going to talk about, that it is a completely different approach. And, when you deal with the digestive system, sometimes it's surprising to find that it can clear up some other issues in the long run. Absolutely, exactly.

Simon: I found that, yes. So what happened with this patient of yours? How did that progress?

Ramana Zhan: So, yeah, this was a really tough infection, that she had, and it wasn't like a quick overnight fix with her. Sadly, it took a little longer than I had expected. What did work quickly was that her green phlegm changed. so I knew that we had got on top of the infection, but she was still producing, mucus and the cough was still around, although it was less intense. So it had a corrective measure on the acute symptoms very quickly. But it did take a little longer to clear. But when I say a little longer, you know, some of these infections can last for, well, quite some time with some people over three weeks for certain. and if we go, these.

Simon: Chronic obstructive conditions, the infection is almost permanent, isn't it? And you can go on for years in a subclinical clinical form, or rather, absolutely.

Ramana Zhan: So for her, I would say probably over a period of three to four weeks, when she started to see it lift out to the lungs completely, to it fully clearing. And bear in mind, this is somebody who doesn't want to use any, antibiotics for the infection and with a higher risk of getting pneumonia, which is.

Simon: Probably wise if it's all viral anyway, correct?

Ramana Zhan: Yes, yes. What would you turn to otherwise? That's why I love herbs so much, because, they do work on multiple levels that can work on bacterial viruses or parasites. And that's, that's the beauty of.

Simon: Did she, is it a she we're talking about?

Ramana Zhan: Yeah.

Simon: Pick up on that. Yeah. Did she have any sort of the spasmodic, you know, asthmatic type symptoms as well. Was wheezing or tight in the airways.

Ramana Zhan: Yeah, she did.

Simon: So that was the lobelia, was it?

Ramana Zhan: Yes. Yeah. The. The breathlessness really, did affect her quite strongly, and she just couldn't grasp the breath, which is a very. It can get you into a fearful state very quickly. Not being able to grasp that breath and not feeling that you're. You can. It takes. It's almost taking away your connection with life, isn't it? It's such an important, so integral to our being to make sure that we can fill our lungs and we can breathe with ease. And when that goes, it puts you in such a vulnerable place. So she was very. She was feeling that? She was. And often when a patient feels like that, you're going to often need to deal with their mental state as well, because it can send some, somebody into lack of confidence, taking a step out into the world, engaging with the world. It does lose your. You do lose your confidence about going out. So she did withdraw in herself a bit as well. And I think sometimes you need to do that when you're healing anyway, just to kind of retreat in and be able to take stock and find that time for healing and convalescing. So she needed to do that. And when she started seeing the symptoms lift, you could see the change in her mental state as well. And it's helpful to talk that through with a patient because sometimes they don't see that happening themselves so often, you.

Simon: Know, one could be diverted into providing, you know, support for mental state when the real support is actually in relieving the physical symptoms.

Ramana Zhan: Yeah, yeah, of course, that's where their natural mental state changes, when they know they're feeling well again. yes.

Simon: And they give them their confidence. I was going to just put a flag on Lobelia because we've got an international audience here and we need to be very grateful that we're allowed to use Lobelia unlike many parts of the world. and, commiserations for those listening who can't, because it is such a fabulous remedy.

Ramana Zhan: Lobelia is wonderful. it's got me out of, lots of situations where I, needed something to work very quickly, and it certainly can. And I'm so pleased that we still have it, really am. And I think it's one of the reasons why I, in my early years, I wanted to hold on to herbal medicine, and I wanted to put that time and effort into joining professional associations and being able to have a, voice for us because it's so important that we keep our herbs and the supply chain going and not keep losing.

Simon: Her is exposed because it's in one of those list of herbs that can only be provided by practitioners. It's not available for sale, to the public. so it's on the edge all the time, isn't it?

Ramana Zhan: It is, it is. And, yeah, yeah, thankfully it's still there.

Simon: So, I mean, this, patient is one that is a recurrent patient, presumably because of her long standing problem post tubercula and so on. So presumably she's among the sort of patients who come by each year when weather gets bad and you need to need another support through the bad times.

Ramana Zhan: That's correct. The weather is a very strong trigger for her and she's generally very good at keeping herself well. She takes care of what she eats, she looks after herself. she does maintain her health as best as she can, but the autumn wintertime is a trigger for her, or can be. And so she does support her lungs. One of the things that, we have worked on also is trying to give her a, strengthening formula just to keep her lungs in good order and keep them thriving. So there's things that you can do, even outside of an acute infection, to support the lungs.

Simon: What is it, your favourite song, I.

Ramana Zhan: Thought, for supporting the lungs. Yes. Echinacea is one. that's a really good one to have around for just keeping the general immune system strong. but I like some of the elements that I've already prescribed for her, like licorice is wonderful. Sometimes I've used elecampagne. It's a very good one, too. Yarrow. I've sometimes used yarrow as well. And if there has been conditions, scoffula conditions, that figwort is wonderful, you know, figwort is there to support the immunity as well.

Simon: Yes. Another one that I find very helpful is the old cinnamon trick. You know, it seems to be so strong and supporting the lungs and especially against the cold.

Ramana Zhan: Yes, cinnamon is. It's a very good one, but I don't use that a huge amount in my practise, only because, I don't know, probably because I'm quite allergic to it, don't tend to prescribe it so much. But, yeah, it is used. I do use it and, yeah, it's a wonderful one.

Simon: But as you say, elecampaign or elicampane, however you pronounce it, is one of the classics for especially, I think, since the Romans have brought it over to Britain, I think, to protect themselves against the awful weather. They, brought it over from southern Europe and it's been naturalised since. But yeah, it definitely brings warmth, doesn't it, to the lungs and gives that boost.

Ramana Zhan: And also I love cayenne. Cayenne is wonderful. and I particularly love it for a couple of reasons. Those that probably don't have minds that think that herbs work, it's one of the ones I would always say, have you tried eating or smelling chilli? How quickly does it work on the body? but it's fabulous.

Simon: I'm a little gentler than you. I tend to go for ginger to the point you're obviously tough up there.

Ramana Zhan: Yeah. So yeah, if you need to break into those kind of minds, it's a very good one to talk about. And also it's so good for decongesting the sinuses. I mean. Yes, a nicer way just to fry it. And as soon as you start frying chilli, I use it a lot in my kitchen. Yeah. As soon as the aroma, that's it. You know, it just decongests. It grows incredibly fast and. Yeah.

Simon: Do you leak.

Ramana Zhan: Now we're talking about sinuses and general sinuses. It's just an idea.

Simon: Do you tie up the whole of the respiratory system, the sinuses, the middle ear, the throat and so on, are they all, one to you or do you have different layers of approach to the respiratory system?

Ramana Zhan: That's an interesting question. Yes. I mean, you can see how far the infection is going into the body, if it's acute and it's early on, you know, if it's still holding in the throat, throat area, whether it's gone down deeper into the lungs. Yes. And sometimes you. I would also look at any underlying sort of mouse health as well, not just sort of airborne or triggered, you know, externally. Any kind of dental work can have a massive effect.

Simon: Detroit is the portal, isn't it?

Ramana Zhan: It is, yeah. Ah. And if you've had things like adenoids taken out at an early age, your first line of defence has become weakened, I think, anyway, because, you know, now it's very well studied. That is, they were important part of our defence system very much.

Simon: Well, thank you for that. I know you had another story to tell us and we've got time, I think, to get another case in just so that we can have another angle on this topic.

Ramana Zhan: Yeah, this is a gentleman, he slightly similar. Well, his gentleman and he was experiencing breathlessness. He didn't have necessarily the signs of infection like green phlegm or coughing or anything. He just had this breathlessness that he didn't know where that came from. The gentleman in his 36 year old and his profession is that he is a taxi driver. Some of his other symptoms that were also interesting was that he often had heartburn, stomach cramps and constipation. So when I assessed his case I actually decided that I wanted to deal with gut first before moving on to any lung herbs. So I started him with, well, two things. a gentle gut cleanser and then I worked on an antiparasitic formula. And the reason I did that was because in my cheques that I do, it came up as parasites showed up in his testing. So I then treated him for parasites with another very bitter formula. It's the bitters that seem to work very well on. Yes, I found that on parasites and the formula that I used for that was wormwood, the artemisian absinthium. I use black walnut cloves, cassia and tanzi.

Simon: That's another very strong taste.

Ramana Zhan: Yes, yes, very, very bitter. And in fact his symptoms cleared up very, very quickly and surprisingly his breathlessness eased within a few weeks of doing that. A couple of weeks. And yeah, it was very fast. I was so surprised because I was thinking of going on to starting to treat his lungs. But I didn't have to at all because the gut just cleared it all cleared it all up. And as you said, the gut and the lungs are very much linked in that capacity.

Simon: Obvious connection that people made in the past was that if you gave an emetic in a sub emetic dose so that it didn't work on the stomach so much, it would act as a good expectant. So that there was an obvious link between irritating the stomach and getting the lungs to move. And the opposite with the mucilages that obviously can't reach the lungs but they soothe the gut and that seems to reflex the relieved some irritations in the lungs. So the fact that the lungs and the gut work together has been recognised for centuries. Millennium, even so, yes. And I've found the same that you can almost ignore a lung problem that you've got enough to do in the gut and it will sort it out indirectly. Yeah. So that's pretty dramatic, isn't it?

Ramana Zhan: Yes, absolutely. And I think I wanted to go down that route because one of the things that I was always taught is always deal with making sure the gut is open and eliminating well, before going into, strong treatments. So I, made sure that that was happening. And so dealing with the constipation, first and foremost, was important. Yeah. So the gut cleanser that I used was. That was just a general supplement that I used actually, as psyllium husks, which are very, well known and inert, with some pectin and some activated charcoal and a probiotic that was in a one tumula mix.

Simon: It's interesting that in some parts of the world, in central Europe, Germany particularly, I think, if someone has a persistent catarrh problem, physicians, eventual physicians, would always go for the bowel.

Simon: As their first line. The connection is much more overt between the gut and the airways. In some parts of the world, yes.

Ramana Zhan: I mean, there's a lot of mucus produced in the gut. So if the gut isn't eliminating it, it has to come out from somewhere else. So, yeah, thank goodness we have other elimination channels that really are needed.

Simon: yeah, it's still the main line, isn't it? Still the main way out and through the bar and through a proper digestive function, yes.

Ramana Zhan: And I think that's what was so interesting was how, because of his profession, sitting down most of the day driving a taxi, his gut isn't getting huge amount of exercise. So you have to kind of take that into consideration is how do you try and get in that condition.

Simon: A conventional doctor would probably say that the thing that was a risk factor of a taxi driver is inhaling particulates. But you've identified a completely different angle, by connecting the lungs with the gut, which is what makes our, herbal work so interesting. We have another angle stories.

Ramana Zhan: Yes. And I think when you take a case, it's, certainly worth, you know, there's signs and clues in the case taking of where you can start. And because he presented some of those symptoms, I just thought that that would be the right place to start with, opening up the channels and seeing where to go from there. And sometimes it doesn't take that long to get. Well, it shouldn't take that long to get the system opened and the gut starting to work. I mean, I have had cases where whatever you do to the gut, it just doesn't want to work. but in this case it did. And, it was very interesting to see how a completely different approach could work on the same symptom.

Simon: Have you found any connection? I'm moving already on because I'm so interested in covering the ground. But we haven't talked particularly about long term asthma and actual asthma or, asthma attacks. And I'm just wondering if some of what we're saying is also an angle you might pursue in dealing with someone with those overt symptoms, asthmatic symptoms.

Ramana Zhan: Yes, absolutely. I mean, some of the asthma, it's a little bit more detailed. And again, I, have to take each individual case on its own merits. but the gut is very important to deal with when you're dealing with asthma, making sure that that's working and functioning well. And also the microbiome is very important, as you know, that the whole body has its own, each body system has its own Microsoft microbiome. So it's important to correct that, to make sure that some of the basics and fundamentals are corrected in the body, which in itself can heal the tissue. So then you can go back and then do the supportive work that's needed on the lungs. So there might be a few steps to do before going in directly and treating the lungs.

Simon: My experience of VAsPR is that they're often under supported in so many ways. They were so reliant on their puffers and blowers and this sort of overt anti asthmatic thing that the rest of them is often neglected. And that's where we can come in, isn't it? We can find all the other places where they need support.

Ramana Zhan: Absolutely. And sometimes you need to look further, further from just the herbs, just the way we're breathing. And the act of breathing, is very important. So whether you're mouth breathing or noise.

Simon: You do breathing work?

eading, you know, some of the: 4000

Simon: I find it's almost inevitable to link, especially with long term conditions, to link breath work and the herbs, because they support each other so well and in fact they can help each other and the patient can get the experience of both from each other, so to speak, so they get more benefit from the work on breathing and with the almost sometimes immediate effects of the herbs gives us a nice, you know, the reinforcing reinforcement.

Ramana Zhan: Absolutely. I think it's very important to really need the breath work in. When you're treating the lungs. It's really important to get people to just think through how they're breathing during the day, and whether they have sleep apnea at night and whether that needs to be, dealt with too, because, that will also affect the lungs. There are so many factors that need to be taken into consideration with how you're breathing throughout the day and a lot of. Yeah, go ahead.

Simon: So I know you carry on. I was just going to raise another completely different topic, but you finish off your line and then I'll come back to it.

Ramana Zhan: No, I was just going to say that, you know, breath work is, it can be so profound in itself as a treatment and linking it to, to the herbs and making sure they work hand in hand, as you've just pointed out, should be part of that whole process and planning.

Simon: The other topic I was going to bring up while we were on the lungs, of course, is their proximity to the heart and the cardiovascular functions and some of the symptoms we know with particularly fluid accumulation in the lungs and so on, is actually due to a failing, you know, right, heart or, you know, other vascular cardiovascular problems. Do you find that you also need sometimes to work on that other side of the thoracic analogue equation?

Ramana Zhan: Yes, I think there are complications because a lot of patients that come, see, are on multiple medications, can be on other medications, on blood pressure medication, or any other, blood thinners. So yeah, trying to incorporate the herbs within that picture is also important that you know that you're getting into drug interaction territory and, and treading carefully. So with people that aren't on drugs, then it's straightforward to use circulatory herbs to support the heart and, blood vessels. They're really good to have side by side. If there are issues in the circulatory system, if there are medication, then yeah, you just need to tread a bit more cattley.

Simon: Indeed. Now, a good point to make. Yes. By the time people got that bad in terms of their heart function than they are usually on a lot of occasions. And as you say, the blood thinners are now pretty much prevalent. Everyone seems to as these days. And blood thinners are the first four.

Ramana Zhan: Yeah, absolutely. And because my practise is, is dealing with chronic cases, I see, people on multiple drugs and yeah, that's where you just need to tread carefully. Obviously, medical profession doesn't like herbs. So we have to do the work correctly and make, sure that, we do our due diligence.

Simon: They accuse us of using blood thinners with every other, if you'd read some of the literature. Yes, yes. A little bit over the top. I think we've, so we've covered, we've made a good case that the lungs and respiratory system are linked to other parts of Bonnie, we've mentioned particularly the digestive system. are there any other parts of the work, that you picked up? I mean, we've mentioned the throat, we've mentioned the sinuses. we've covered most of the main symptoms that you can get in the lungs. Is there any sort of bits that we've missed out?

Ramana Zhan: I think I touched on the dental work that, you know, you can have, pockets of infection in the gums that you can get repeated infections from. and sometimes you need to deal with what's going on in the mouth, rather than. Yeah. And the herbal mouthwashes work beautifully. I. Yeah, absolutely. You can really work.

Simon: And they work instantly as well.

Ramana Zhan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I just love, yeah, I've been amazed at how quickly they work. So I love them. Yeah. And, you know, you can use so many different herbs for that as well. You know, golden seal myrrh are, common ones that I put into the mouthwash. Thyme, you know, thyme is also a wonderful herb for the lungs and very antibacterial, antiviral.

Simon: I know there was, there was one angle that I missed, which is, children, do you get to see any with your chronic conditions work? And we know that they're prone to these irritable, dry, non productive coughs that go on and on and annoy their parents enormously. Do you have favourite children's lung remedies that you turn to?

Ramana Zhan: Again, all the cases I take on are so individual, so I don't have a standard formula, that I go to, but I often will start with making sure the gut is right again with children. Interestingly, I will do some liver work and liver support for the children.

Simon: What's the connection for you with the liver and the lungs?

Ramana Zhan: They get quite a lot of vaccinations and because they are getting repeated antibiotics, I find that I want to deal with the liver and that can be very supportive, just working on the liver. And you can do it very gently with children and they're so responsive. I love it. I love working.

Simon: Yes, I love, I love working with children. Yes. Whether or not their parents are getting in the way. I still love working with children.

Ramana Zhan: Yeah. It's very rewarding.

Sebastian: You've been listening to the herb cast, the podcast from herbal reality. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If so, perhaps you'd like to leave us a rating that really helped us to spread our message for herbal health. We hope you'll join us again for the next episode. And in the meantime, if you'd like a few more herbal insights from us, do have a look@herbalreality.com. Or learn more from us via Instagram, where we're at Herbal reality, and we're on Twitter and Facebook, too. We'll be back with another episode of the Herb Car soon. Thanks for joining.