Episode 1

How Herbalism Can Reclaim Your Health with Simon Mills

Published on: 15th June, 2022

"Herbs nudge the body to better physiological activity"

Simon is the Self Care Lead at the College of Medicine and Herbal Strategist at Pukka Herbs. He has been a herbal practitioner in Exeter for 45 years. He has led the leading professional and trade organisations for herbal medicine in the UK and served on Government and House of Lords Committees. He has authored standard textbooks used by herbal practitioners worldwide, including with Professor Kerry Bone from Australia. He co-founded the University of Exeter's pioneering Centre for Complementary Health Studies in 1987 (building complementary research and postgraduate teaching programme from scratch), then at Peninsula the first integrated health course at a UK medical school, and the first Masters degree in herbal medicine in the USA, at the Maryland University of Integrative Health.

He is fascinated by the insights distilled from the millions of intelligent people who over many centuries needed plants to survive. Mostly he wants to learn and share the old skills, to experience healing plants as characters that can help us fend off ill health. His passion for offering people tools to look after themselves and their families has led to working with the founders of the College of Medicine on pioneering national self-care and social prescribing projects.

Simon talks on:

  • Shaping a neglected profession into a real health care option.
  • His fundamental love of physiology and pharmacology – how herbs can contribute to the needs of today.
  • The loss of human autonomy – returning health ownership and empowerment with self-care.
  • A crucial turning point in the awareness and need for herbalism in our society today.
  • Fundamental day-to-day health skills – food, sleep, and a connection to nature.
  • The language of health - recognising symptoms as signposts, not threats.
  • The role of the herbal practitioner today and connecting with communities.
  • An intuitive goat called Emily
  • Complex systems, the microbiome, and the wisdom of herbalism.
  • Making herbalism accessible to all.

Find out more about Herbal Reality on Instagram @herbal.reality or visit www.herbalreality.com 

Herbcast is produced by Decibelle Creative: @decibelle_creative / www.decibellecreative.com 

Transcript
Simon:

Hello there.

Sebastian:

Welcome to the Herbcast, the podcast from Herbal

Sebastian:

Reality, delving into the plant powered world of

Sebastian:

herbalism.

Sebastian:

So do you know your echinacea from your eleutherococcus

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or your polyphenol from your polysaccharides? Whether

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you're a budding herbalist, an inquisitive health professional,

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or a botanical beginner, herbcast is here to

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inform and inspire you on your journey to integrating herbs in our

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everyday lives. So settle down, turn up,

Sebastian:

and let's start today's episode of the Herbal Reality

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herbcast.

Sebastian:

Well, it gives me great pleasure today to welcome

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Simon Mills. Simon, it's great to have you here

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and we've become colleagues first and

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then friends over the years. And

Sebastian:

Simon, you've got a remarkable career in herbal medicine

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and just looking forward to talking to you about it all today. I'm not going to give

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you a long introduction because we'd be here for ages,

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but I'd love to just, you know, hear today your

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story of what brought you to becoming a herbalist and then

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some of your experiences and your wisdom

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and guidance you've got for us today for the future really.

Sebastian:

So yeah, how did you become a herbalist, Simon? What brought you to it

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all?

Simon:

Thank you Sebastian. And thank you for the opportunity to sort of go

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back over my life. I ah, often

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think that if you ask a herbalist how they became a

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herbalist, it would always be an interesting story because,

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you know, it's not a simple career path. You don't get offered it

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at school as an option. So everyone

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must have a very interesting story. Certainly

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mine is I grew up as a nomad, my

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father was posted to various places around the world,

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and we moved to New Zealand in when I was about

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nine and had a fruit farm. So I

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grew up with plants and commercial

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development thereof. Apples and pears

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and oranges, and grapefruits and nectar greens and

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so on. We were the first people to grow Chinese

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gooseberries, which was a failure because we

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hadn't thought of the word kiwi fruit for them. But

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that was the sort of world that I grew up with and managed

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to get an entry into Cambridge from New Zealand, which was a

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sort of big deal. and that incidentally meant that

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we had a really interesting journey across

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from New Zealand to Cambridge, which involved taking a bus

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from Mumbai all the way through to

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London through places you can't go anymore, you know, like

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Afghanistan and Persia and Iran and

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Iraq, the west bank and so on. So it was

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A wonderful learning experience. And you arrive

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in London in the 60s, you know, which was really

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the most fertile creative environment,

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creative decade of all, I'm sure. and

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you know, radical things going on and great

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cultural and other developments. And I went up to

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Cambridge to study sciences, natural sciences.

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But as I was reading through the Cambridge

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book, I realised that you could do medical

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sciences as a degree. That's

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an option they gave you. And I was really interested in how

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humans worked. So I did physiology and

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remain an avid physiologist

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ever since. I just love understanding and working

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with how the body works. and I

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was never interested in diseases, I was never of pathology.

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And so the time came for me to, you know,

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finish my degree and thought, what am I going to do next?

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And in those days it was quite normal not to go

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and take a job, you know. So I, I wandered

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around the world, bumped into some

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traditional cultures in North Africa

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and in Central America,

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spent some time in a village in Mexico

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and just saw people treating

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themselves with plants

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and you know, that sowed a little seed.

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So I came back, had a small legacy and, and decided

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that I would go into what was then a very

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radical idea, of going to self

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sufficiency, small holding, you know, the idea that you can go

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and live off your, off the land by yourself.

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And went to Cornwall and looking for a crop

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and an old uni friend pointed me to a

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neighbour who was growing herbs as a herb nursery. So I

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thought I'll grow some herbs and you

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know, then the penny dropped and I discovered

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that there was a place you could study herbs. So

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I studied at the National Institute of Medical Herbalists.

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And because, I'd done medicine before, I sort of went through it

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fairly rapidly. My first

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interview was with Fred Fletcher Hyde, who had

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carried the torch of herbal medicine through from

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the war years. And by the time I'd

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arrived there there was about, I think 20

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people calling themselves herbalists in the

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UK and they were all over 50.

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It was a dying profession and he was the

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last of those, that generation

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and he was a God fearing, Christian. And

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he asked me first of all whether I was and

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I declined to answer

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that one. But he then said, well, you do know

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that herbal medicine is the only God

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given medicine, everything else is man

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made, so it's the only one that's really true. And

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you know, he quoted the Bible, the Lord hath created

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medicines out of the earth and he that is wise should not

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abhor them, which I used as a title in my book. But the

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idea that herbal medicine was

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the true, so I now call it the first

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Medicine has stuck from that

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time and has infected me to the point where you know,

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I genuinely and sincerely believe

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that herbal medicine is the

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basis of a rarely fundamental

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healthcare option that we've neglected.

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So that was where the seed was sown and I became a

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practitioner in 1977

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and have been in practise ever since.

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The other thing that really attracted me about herbs was that it

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was fundamentally a physiological

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medicine. Conventional medicine is all about

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diseases and fixing diseases, whereas herbs

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allow you a way of working with the

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functions of the body, nudging self

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correcting physiological functions. That's something that I was

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rarely quick to pick up as a

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really attractive part of herbs. It took the

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high ground. You know, this was definitely something that was worth

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working for. So having got,

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got that commitment I thought well the only thing to do is to,

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is to pick it up from this small group

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of the last dozen practitioners

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and build it into something that was much

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bigger. And a guy who had qualified

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just before me was Heinz Elstra who was

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given the job of taking over the education department of the

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NIMH and promptly

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set up a school in Tunbridge Wells

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then. And I spent two

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days a week with Hein for the next six,

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seven years commuting from. I'd

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moved to Exeter from Cornwall and

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commuted to Tunbridge Wells two days a week and

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taught physiology and other subjects at

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the, at this new school. And so you know, together

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we plotted all sorts of things into the wee hours.

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We would usually stay awake until 2

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or 3 in the morning drinking his leftovers,

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from his. He had a spirit, he had an alcohol licence for making

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tinctures so there was always a 5% wastage

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that you could have. So he used to make wonderful

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liqueurs which we used to quaff

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past midnight. Anyway, that was

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where you know, we thought about how we

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would get herbal medicine into, into

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shape, with proper education, research,

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professional standards and so on.

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And so I became president of The NIMH in

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1983, did about eight years in that

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job and then was a founder chair of the Council

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of Complementary and Alternative Medicine. So we started making common

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ground with acupuncturists and with

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osteopaths, homoeopaths and setting up

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professional standards through the 80s. So that

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was where I really cut my teeth.

Sebastian:

I m just love the image of you catching that bus in

Sebastian:

Mumbai travelling across

Sebastian:

Asia and through to the uk. To

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really find your heart

Sebastian:

in, in herbalism. But also the fact that it was so

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few practitioners, Simon, you know, you know, it really

Sebastian:

was. It had been worn down, hadn't it? By that stage there were

Sebastian:

a few stalwarts studying and practising.

Simon:

Well, this, this is a life lesson I could pass on to

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anybody. If you really are a small fish, find

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a very small pond, and then you can make yourself into a

Simon:

big fish.

Sebastian:

Interesting metaphor. Well, I think, I think

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the, the. Yes, the small pond found a big

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fish to expand, Simon, for the potential

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that was there. I mean, you know, if the history of medicine is

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anything, it's the history of herbalism up to the last

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hundred years. Anyway, I'd love to explore a bit more this

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idea. Your love of physiology and

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pharmacology perhaps as well. And

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you know, how you see herbs working and how

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they can contribute to the needs of

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today.

Simon:

Yes, it is fundamental

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and I keep on

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myself and to anybody who will listen, that herbs.

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Herbal medicine is different from

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the conventional approach to medicine. And it's not

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different because we made it up in the bath. It's different because

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humans have been doing it that way for

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millennia. So going back to the core

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does involve ditching quite a lot of stuff that we

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assume in conventional medicine.

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and m. The main one really is

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that the body is self correcting and that you

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don't go and fix things

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by what you can do. But the best

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way of maintaining or promoting health is

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to help the body to do that, to nudge it. I

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use the word nudge a lot and I truly

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feel that herbs, are the ideal

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nudging medicines. They

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nudge the body to better physiological

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activity and they're working

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functionally, but they're performance enhances or

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whatever way you want to put it, rather than things that

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fix diseases. So, you know, when someone says

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chamomile is good for a headache or stomachache, a little

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fairy dies in me because I'm saying, no, that's not

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chamomile. Chamomile helps you to,

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relax, it helps the digestion to work better. it

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has all sorts of complementary functions because it's

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a complex material and it's got a personality. You

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know, the homoeopaths have a similar idea that their

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medicines have a Persona, and a

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profile. And I think we do too, you know. And

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so in teaching herbs, I always talk

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about the herbs as having a personality. Get to know the

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herb and maybe just use it on its own,

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so that you Understand it, Galen used to call it

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proofing, you know, where you take the herb

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yourself and learn about it

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and its qualities. so yeah, herbs are

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ah, I see as physiological

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remedies helping the body or to nudge the body

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to performing better. But the other thing is that I think

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that herbal medicine is a medicine of

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qualities rather than of quantities.

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So we're very used in medicine to talk about, you know,

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the odds of this and the stats of that and, and you

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know, what your chances of doing this, that or the other.

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And you know, I always say that that

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is the story of the crowd, you know,

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that's taking 100 people and saying 50%

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of them are going to do this and the other. It doesn't, it doesn't help

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us to understand what's going on inside.

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So that the the way that we understood

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herbs originally was through their qualities,

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their tastes, their smells, the impact

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they had when you swallowed them or tasted them.

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And that was how they were classified. And the

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ones I think have the greatest power

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are, to rework

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those original insights so that

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they become tools to

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change the body. My most

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rewarding work is still with

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people who come to see me, with illnesses and health

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problems. And it's a huge privilege

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to take a very often complex story,

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very puzzling story. People are very distressed

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by diseases, they can't understand. The

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doctors have partial help with. And

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to be able to link them all together

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within one person's story

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and then come up with a strategy

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that may have nothing to do with the symptoms

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but which comes out of the way in which these

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things interact. That's, that's a

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medicine of qualities. It's a medicine of

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as a physiology. It's, it's working with

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function. So it is very, very

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different. And I think we suffer

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if herbs are ah, compared with

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beta blockers or omeprazole, or

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antihypertensives. Those are doing

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different jobs. Ours do something quite

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different and we should be proud and bang on about it

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and shout that as much as we can. And you

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know, things like herbal reality and so

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on is a great platform for getting some of these

Simon:

stories across and put. And setting our stall

Simon:

out to display our herbs

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as they deserve.

Sebastian:

M. I love that idea. You're talking about how

Sebastian:

herbs nudge, and

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influence the patterns of health and

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how it sounds like when you work with your clients,

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you act as a teacher describing to them

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about the qualities of their life or the qualities,

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the patterns that they exude.

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What role do you think Herbalism can really play in empowering

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people's health and in helping

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educate people about what it means to have

Sebastian:

good digestion or to sleep well and the small things

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they can do on a daily basis.

Simon:

Yeah, that takes me back to a critical

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part of my early, development. In the 70s, I bumped into a couple

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of people who had a huge influence on my life.

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One of them was E.F. ernst Schumacher,

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who wrote a book at the 1973 called Small is

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Beautiful Economics as if People Met

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it is the subtitle of the book. And he was

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influenced by Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi, and

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Buddhist economics, as he called it. And really

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was questioning where

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particularly Western society was going economically

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and societally. by

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saying that a, we were threatening,

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the integrity, the sustainability of our planet. We

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were roaring away. This is in the 60s and 70s. He was saying

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this, you know, that we were unsustainable. but more

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importantly in his case, we were

Simon:

losing human autonomy, human

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dignity. You know, he had the classic image

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of. In India, for example, you know, you can

Simon:

either bring a factory in to make

Simon:

sandals and sell them around the

Simon:

world, or you can tool up

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local economies, villages and so on to make

Simon:

sandals, in their own fashion,

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and it's just as good quality. But the

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people concerned have control over their own lives. They

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had that autonomy. That was a huge impact on me, the idea that

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you return, the ownership back to

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people rather than give it to institutions. And

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the other person. I was very fortunate to meet

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Schumacher as well. I had a wonderful conversation with him, and that was

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really powerful for me. But the other person had

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even more in, contact with was Ivan

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Illich, who wrote the key

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iconoclastic book in the 1970s

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called Medical Nemesis, which really threw

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a spanner at the way in which medicine was

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going even then, let alone now. still a

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very good read. He was the one, very

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incisively, who, challenged the idea that

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medicine was best done outside your

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own world. Before he wrote Medical

Simon:

Nemesis, he wrote a book called Tools of Conviviality, which is

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about giving people tools to fashion their own

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world and their own community and their own, rather than impose

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it up your tools from above. and that

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was a huge influence on me. So the, notion that I

Simon:

have is that herbal medicine are the

Simon:

ideal medicines to

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empower people to give you meaningful

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tools that, you can fashion

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your own health with. No other material

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does that. Certainly conventional pharmaceuticals are

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given to you. You take them passively.

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with herbs you have an opportunity to

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rarely work out your Own

Simon:

health. So they are the ultimate self

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care tools. And, you know, self care to me is

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a major part of what I do. I'm, at least as

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interested in inspiring people to look after themselves as

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in talking with fellow professionals. You know, I think

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herbal medicine is the medicine of the people.

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And it fits the Schumacher and Illich notion that

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you give power back

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to the individual, to the family, to the community.

Simon:

it's, it's inherently empowering.

Sebastian:

I love that, Simon. The idea that, there

Sebastian:

is a, you know, there's a knowledge in nature, if you like, there's a wisdom

Sebastian:

in nature and it's there and accessible to us if we're lucky enough

Sebastian:

to be taught and, you know, exposed to it from a,

Sebastian:

from a young age. A bit like we are, with the foods we eat and the

Sebastian:

personal hygiene we have and taking rest,

Sebastian:

you know, do we want to trail over the history of why it's

Sebastian:

happened? But what are some of the solutions to the

Sebastian:

future going ahead? You know, how can people become more empowered

Sebastian:

and learn more?

Simon:

Well, I question this a lot. I think, you know, why is it

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that we're still a small group of people talking about

Simon:

this, and the wider community, the

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wider society doesn't seem interested. And I think it's

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a fundamental thing that when you're ill, you feel very vulnerable,

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you know, you know, when it hurts, it hurts and you just want

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someone to come and fix it. You know, I sometimes used

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to say that in a way, wouldn't

Simon:

care if my dentist was, you know, a

Simon:

member of the SS as long as he fixed my bloody teeth if

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they were painful. You know, you just want someone

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to come and fix it. and most of

Simon:

us feel vulnerable when we're ill.

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And so the idea that someone can take it over and say,

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don't worry, we'll look after it, is a

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hugely comforting

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option, that we now have in modern society. So

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the idea that we're going to tell people, oh, well, actually that's not as

Simon:

good as you going out and fixing it and working it out for

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yourself is a tough one for a lot of people.

Simon:

So I think, you know, there's about 10% probably

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of the population who's up for this at the moment,

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and we can, we can encourage them to

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do more of this. but, you know, we're seeing it

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now, aren't we? You know, it's less easy to go and

Simon:

see a doctor. It's. You have to wait longer even for an

Simon:

ambulance these days. you know, there'll come a

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time, quite likely, when more and more

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people will have to do what we've

Simon:

been doing here. And so I think our job is

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to get the tools ready, and to get it in good

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shape so that it's available for people when they need

Simon:

it. and one of the great things of working with

Simon:

pukka over these last five years has been to

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see how it is possible to

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spread a message widely

Simon:

about the power of plants and organic plants particularly.

Simon:

and that's been a huge comfort in my later years to

Simon:

actually think, you know, you can spread the

Simon:

word much more widely. It's not just a few of us in a

Simon:

corner.

Sebastian:

It feels like the, the time is ripe, doesn't

Sebastian:

it, in a way, having been a bit quiet, should we say for a

Sebastian:

few years that people are open to taking

Sebastian:

more charge of their health? And, you know, it's not

Sebastian:

100% necessarily, is it? You can take charge of your health up to a certain

Sebastian:

point. And of course we all need professional medical

Sebastian:

advice at certain times in our life and that may be from a

Sebastian:

conventional medical doctor or a herbalist or acupuncturist,

Sebastian:

wherever we choose to go. But it feels like there are some

Sebastian:

basic principles one can

Sebastian:

include in your daily life. And I

Sebastian:

know from all your, your writing and teaching career

Sebastian:

that that's gone from the simple to the very

Sebastian:

detailed. I just wondered whether it's worth talking about some

Sebastian:

of the, the basics that you see that

Sebastian:

people can implement in their health. You know, what are some of the day

Sebastian:

to day things people could, could include?

Simon:

Well, and I start with the plants. And

Simon:

indeed part of my political manoeuvring,

Simon:

has been to use the word plant

Simon:

as often as I can, rather than herbs because herbs

Simon:

tend to close shutters down, you know, so if

Simon:

you start talking about plants it opens up conversations a

Simon:

bit more. and of course plants start with foods.

Simon:

So a lot of what we see as health

Simon:

values in our, herbs, are actually the health values of the

Simon:

plants in our diet. So, you know,

Simon:

often we can start the conversation with just, well,

Simon:

almost always we can start the conversation with just talking about the

Simon:

value of, you know, polyphenols and colours

Simon:

and plants and fibre. In fact, that's

Simon:

a good way in for us in the conversation. You know, if I'm talking

Simon:

to doctors, I'll start with that because that's something that, that

Simon:

they can immediately relate to.

Simon:

so, yes, food, good eating.

Simon:

And the other part of all this for me

Simon:

is how it connects us with Our, Earth, it's

Simon:

earthing. Another influence on me was

Simon:

Satish Kumar

Simon:

in Schumacher Golledge. A nice,

Simon:

combination there, who writes about the

Simon:

Earth Pilgrim and about how we connect with

Simon:

our Earth. and of course, you know, my book was called out of

Simon:

the Earth. You know, the connection with our,

Simon:

with the ground and with nature

Simon:

is fundamental to herbs. So,

Simon:

you know, starting with walking in nature, getting out,

Simon:

doing a bit of connection with plants and nature,

Simon:

growing your own or even window box.

Simon:

Often it's just those fundamentals.

Simon:

Eating well, of course, sleeping well,

Simon:

you know, those are the two big health issues. And that

Simon:

may be a case where we do need to step in

Simon:

almost straight away with some herbs. And

Simon:

then, you know, we've written a lot on self

Simon:

care, but it's learning how to

Simon:

recognise symptoms not as

Simon:

threats but as signposts, you know, so

Simon:

how to read things better,

Simon:

and not be frightened by them, but see them

Simon:

as friends.

Sebastian:

I love that. It's almost like the language of health, isn't it? Is

Sebastian:

how can you learn to use,

Sebastian:

the feelings and signs and symptoms you have

Sebastian:

as an indication for how to adjust your diet or your

Sebastian:

exercise or your sleep.

Simon:

Another formative influence on me, which I must

Simon:

share, was when I was in Cornwall, with

Simon:

my herb nursery and was self sufficient and we

Simon:

had goats. And one of them, the

Simon:

mother goat, was called Emily. And every

Simon:

day I used to take her out and put her on a long lead

Simon:

as she would then spend her time on the Cornish

Simon:

hedges. And watching her

Simon:

I realised that in fact she wasn't just hoovering

Simon:

up, you know, as you would imagine a cow would do, just

Simon:

grass, would hoover up the grass. but was

Simon:

being extremely selective and

Simon:

picking plants very discreetly. and it was

Simon:

only a little while later that I realised that actually she

Simon:

was choosing what I now use as medicines.

Simon:

And where did she learn that? You

Simon:

know, there was no book there.

Simon:

And all that Emily was doing

Simon:

was using her nose, she was nosing her

Simon:

way, knowing her way through the materia

Simon:

medica and fine tuning her

Simon:

own internal

Simon:

physiology intuitively.

Simon:

And, this idea of intuiting,

Simon:

is, is to me important, you know, the notion

Simon:

that instead of analysing and breaking

Simon:

things down, you intuit the holes. This is

Simon:

what Brian Goodwin, another colleague of mine

Simon:

from, from Schumacher as well, called,

Simon:

the science of qualities. I said I'd like to be like

Simon:

Emily when I grew up. You know, I want to be able

Simon:

to just feel

Simon:

your way through. So, when I'm with A

Simon:

patient. I'm asking, them how it

Simon:

feels all the time rather than

Simon:

what the doctor said they've got. You know, what

Simon:

actually is the sense? What is the symptom? How

Simon:

does, how does it hit you? Is it. Does it get better

Simon:

with hot or cold? Does it, you know, all those sort of things, other

Simon:

things that guide us, aren't they?

Sebastian:

Yeah. How can we sniff out what's good for us?

Simon:

Yeah, yeah.

Sebastian:

How can we sense,

Sebastian:

you know, it feels like we've moved in this, you

Sebastian:

know, this direction. If we're talking about nature and the

Sebastian:

earth and the insight and intuition of animals towards

Sebastian:

their own health through this sort of

Sebastian:

scientific revolution, evolution

Sebastian:

to the, the place we are in the world today which,

Sebastian:

which feels full of hope for natural medicine and full of

Sebastian:

opportunity. Although we are, we are still

Sebastian:

so small. I know some of the work you've done with the Golledge of

Sebastian:

Medicine and in social prescribing and some of those

Sebastian:

areas, where there seems to be a greater

Sebastian:

move towards more social health care

Sebastian:

on a wider sense. I wondered if we could explore a bit more

Sebastian:

about the future in a way. And some of your hopes

Sebastian:

and some of your vision for how we can really

Sebastian:

help society's health improve in the future.

Simon:

Yes. On a political front. Yes. well, one

Simon:

of my other activities was to get involved with

Simon:

doctors and healthcare workers generally. Ah, lovely

Simon:

guy called Michael Dixon, who is quite a

Simon:

big noise in general practise, as a colleague of

Simon:

mine nearby, work with him. And we set up and

Simon:

designed a project funded by the Department of Health to look at

Simon:

self care and family practise. That was the title of the

Simon:

project in 2009 started. Part of the

Simon:

conditions was that we brought what

Simon:

the NHS calls clinical stakeholders. So the heads of

Simon:

the colleges of medicines of various sorts and nurses

Simon:

and so on. And, so we prepared a

Simon:

paper to explain to them why

Simon:

self care was useful, even though there was

Simon:

very little evidence base and in fact there was often

Simon:

used for things that they weren't properly diagnosing. In other words,

Simon:

sort of defeating everything we know about evidence based

Simon:

medicine. So we prepared this rarely and we were

Simon:

sort of chewing our fingernails thinking this is going to be thrown

Simon:

out. And it was funny that within

Simon:

a, couple of minutes or so of our presentation, one of them said,

Simon:

oh, you mean self care? Oh, that's not our

Simon:

problem. We don't need evidence for that. As long as

Simon:

it's safe and doesn't interfere with proper medicine, then go

Simon:

for it. Even homoeopathy. Except if

Simon:

it's self care. And I got it. If

Simon:

you take this out of the

Simon:

doctor's territory and

Simon:

don't challenge them on their own turf,

Simon:

then it's fine. So suddenly there

Simon:

was a huge opportunity to talk about herbs

Simon:

as self care tools rather than as

Simon:

challenges to the medical hegemony.

Simon:

So social prescription emerged out of that project. Actually,

Simon:

in fact we now say that we created in

Simon:

that project what is now called the link

Simon:

worker. the idea that instead of the doctor giving you a

Simon:

prescription of, conventional medicine, they say

Simon:

go and see somebody who will then guide you through the

Simon:

local yoga classes and the carting group and so on.

Simon:

And that's what now called the link worker. And there's thousands

Simon:

of them paid for by the NHS now. Ah,

Simon:

and so we've seen a radical transformation

Simon:

and it's because we found

Simon:

a way around the medical blocks, that

Simon:

we found, ah, a way that worked

Simon:

with people's needs rather than

Simon:

creating another professional

Simon:

over Lord. and I think

Simon:

that's really exciting. So the idea that we

Simon:

become guides, I call them health

Simon:

guides to people who are looking to improve their

Simon:

health. And we bring our expertise as

Simon:

teachers, as guys, a

Simon:

physician who was originally a teacher. So we

Simon:

are recreating that really exciting new

Simon:

role where we support people

Simon:

in their personal choices and their own

Simon:

self care. And social prescribing is a political

Simon:

way in which that becomes acceptable within the

Simon:

NHS and other. And so around the world now people are

Simon:

taking to social prescribing like hotcakes.

Simon:

So it's a very exciting opportunity we

Simon:

have self care likewise. And so that

Simon:

brings us back to what is the role of the herbal

Simon:

practitioner. And you know,

Simon:

we are now excitingly involved in this new herbal

Simon:

alliance where we're bringing practitioners

Simon:

from a wide range of disciplines and traditions

Simon:

into one conversation, and

Simon:

giving them hopefully, an increasingly effective

Simon:

voice. I think that voice will

Simon:

be to say we are working with

Simon:

the community, we're the ones that are going to help

Simon:

people to get better. we've got

Simon:

expertise, we've done our 4, 5, 6, 8, 10

Simon:

years of experience here and we can

Simon:

bring this to the party. but we're not going to set

Simon:

ourselves up as new doctors.

Simon:

You know, we're not going to compete with gps or we're not

Simon:

going to say we're as good as we're different.

Simon:

And I think we have a huge

Simon:

prospect of helping people to

Simon:

discover their health then their

Simon:

connections with nature, their

Simon:

sustainable lifestyles, all

Simon:

things that we can help guide.

Sebastian:

Well, I think that, you know, it's so exciting that idea of

Sebastian:

the community basis in a way, how herbalists can

Sebastian:

work. I know the word community is used a

Sebastian:

bit loosely in a way, but, you know, how can it really work

Sebastian:

with individuals, families, generation to

Sebastian:

generation and also, also, you know, more widely

Sebastian:

across the community as, ah, educators

Sebastian:

really, and that ability to teach

Sebastian:

the fundamentals of life. So you know, when, when I asked you what

Sebastian:

are the things you work with a client, you know, they're all really simple things, aren't. they, it's

Sebastian:

your diet, sl, exercise. And

Sebastian:

of course, herbalists have got very special knowledge of a range of

Sebastian:

specialist plants as well to help influence health.

Sebastian:

So I really think that's an exciting vision.

Simon:

There was always, there was always the wise woman in every village. And

Simon:

although we're not of that gender, we,

Simon:

might take that role of, of being the

Simon:

person you go to when you need a bit of extra help.

Sebastian:

I mean, taking it a little bit further in terms of

Sebastian:

the, the vision of the future. Simon, you

Sebastian:

know, obviously we stand in this nature crisis at

Sebastian:

the moment. And you know, I've been an admirer

Sebastian:

of your work as you've looked at the microbiome and these

Sebastian:

ideas of the being a wider planetary

Sebastian:

biome. As we're talking about communities, maybe we should

Sebastian:

talk about the community inside us for a bit. I'd love to

Sebastian:

explore how that work

Sebastian:

you've, you know, that's evolved over the years for

Sebastian:

you, is influencing your thinking about how

Sebastian:

herbalism works and its opportunity for

Sebastian:

improving health. It feels like there's an interface there between

Sebastian:

the tradition of herbalism and the wisdom it

Sebastian:

holds.

Simon:

Yeah.

Sebastian:

And the cutting edge of science and the insights

Sebastian:

it's finding about us being a part of a

Sebastian:

whole ecosystem in a way.

Simon:

Yeah.

Sebastian:

And just to throw in another blend, you know, we've got, you know,

Sebastian:

the whole idea of how we grow our food and organic

Sebastian:

farming in there as well. So this idea of caring for the

Sebastian:

whole ecosystem, love to just explore that.

Simon:

For a few years. There's a very high

Simon:

ground there too, because

Simon:

we've grown up thinking of science as

Simon:

reductionist and breaking things down and being very

Simon:

clever at that. But there is a completely opposite view, which

Simon:

is in the ascendant in most areas of

Simon:

human activity, except medicine, strangely, which is

Simon:

the notion of complex systems, complex living

Simon:

systems, ecosystems. And it's

Simon:

obviously in all environmental science, but it's also in

Simon:

economics, in history and physics. And most

Simon:

disciplines have now adopted the notion of

Simon:

complex systems as the fundamental principle of

Simon:

life. And in complex systems you do

Simon:

have diversity. You have Complexity,

Simon:

you have interactions between the

Simon:

participants of the system. The system itself

Simon:

emerges out of these interactions. I

Simon:

mentioned a, ah, colleague of mine, Brian Goodwin at Schumacher, who was

Simon:

originally at Open University and is a biophysicist.

Simon:

he's left us now, but he was one

Simon:

of the people who was at the forefront of

Simon:

complexity theory and you know, he worked with,

Simon:

with ants and little small ant

Simon:

colonies and he was able to show how

Simon:

the colony would grow and

Simon:

pulse almost like a living being with just

Simon:

the net outcome of the individual interactions of each

Simon:

ant. And each ant had what, one of two

Simon:

ways that when they met each other they would either in effect approve

Simon:

or disapprove. And out of those interactions

Simon:

the whole colony became

Simon:

an organism, a living organism. And it was

Simon:

a model that you can see through all living

Simon:

biomes. So we now know of course that the soil

Simon:

is an enormously complex biome with all

Simon:

sorts of levels of life there which you tinker

Simon:

with at your peril. And we have been tinkering with it. So the

Simon:

soil is vastly denatured around the world

Simon:

because we've been treating it badly, we haven't been

Simon:

restoring its inner life. And

Simon:

so we see the real threat to our livelihoods

Simon:

in the depletion of the soil. And we now working

Simon:

very hard with organic farming and others

Simon:

ways to build the soil to be

Simon:

more sustainable. And the

Simon:

same principle increasingly

Simon:

seems to apply to the biome that

Simon:

lives within us, particularly in the

Simon:

gut, the gut microbiome, which

Simon:

seems to have all the same properties.

Simon:

We've found all sorts of ways of working with microbiome. We give

Simon:

them probiotics, which are

Simon:

new organisms and yoghurts and things that we hope

Simon:

might replenish some of the ones that are there.

Simon:

Tough call because you have to get through the stomach

Simon:

first. but then we have prebiotics, which is

Simon:

the idea that you feed the

Simon:

microbiome with the right sort of

Simon:

nourishment and out of that you grow

Simon:

a better biome. And that is much closer to

Simon:

the idea of manure feeding the soil,

Simon:

replenishing the soil rather than throwing

Simon:

fertiliser on it. So I like the idea of the

Simon:

microbiome being our inner garden

Simon:

where we tend it in the same way the good

Simon:

organic gardener would tend a garden.

Simon:

So yeah, the notion of the biome, the

Simon:

notion that we really do need to move to

Simon:

organic ways of growing and

Simon:

applying that internally as well as

Simon:

to our immediate environment, that I think is

Simon:

very important.

Sebastian:

M M and are there any Particular herbs

Sebastian:

that you found, more relevant

Sebastian:

than others in their impact on the microbiome

Sebastian:

or just generally interested

Sebastian:

in how they interface?

Simon:

Well, the amazing thing we're discovering

Simon:

is that we've been awed by the

Simon:

probiotics and the yoghurts and then by the prebiotics and the

Simon:

Jerusalem artichokes and then parsnips and the carrots and so

Simon:

on, and the cereals. But now we can

Simon:

introduce the notion of postbiotics

Simon:

that we're increasingly finding that many of our

Simon:

herbs actually engage in the

Simon:

conversation further down the system.

Simon:

they invent what we call cross talk between the

Simon:

microbiome and the rest of us. And there's this

Simon:

constant communication that goes on. And

Simon:

herbs with like polyphenols, all the

Simon:

flavonoids and anthracyanins and so on,

Simon:

things like cocoa and red, wine and so

Simon:

on, all play a part as postbiotics

Simon:

in helping to shape and

Simon:

help the microbiome to form itself. So

Simon:

almost all the things that we think of as good foods

Simon:

now, stepping up further and further into

Simon:

this way of influencing the

Simon:

microbiome. but you know, I've got to give a plug

Simon:

to a, herb that you introduced me to, which is

Simon:

triphala, you know, which is

Simon:

as we have learned, the

Simon:

most valuable remedy in Asian

Simon:

medicine, at least its various components

Simon:

and almost unknown in the west, but

Simon:

almost perfectly designed to

Simon:

help maintain gut

Simon:

health. So you know, the more we can

Simon:

big up triphala and get the world

Simon:

to see its values, the better.

Sebastian:

Probably the most popular herbal formula in the world.

Simon:

Exactly.

Sebastian:

They seem to know about it over in the, over in the West. Well, I

Sebastian:

love the fact that we've been having a conversation about, you know,

Sebastian:

your life as a herbalist and about the

Sebastian:

language of the earth in a way.

Sebastian:

And then how you've finished

Sebastian:

by talking about there's actually a conversation

Sebastian:

going on inside our bodies when this

Sebastian:

interface, this cross talk, this crosstalk happens. And

Sebastian:

I, for me that really sums it up that it really is

Sebastian:

about a conversation. You know, how do we get on with

Sebastian:

our patients, other herbalists, other medical

Sebastian:

professionals, society at large I think is through having

Sebastian:

a conversation and really raising the

Sebastian:

awareness of the

Sebastian:

power of plants, but also how accessible

Sebastian:

they are to people and how affordable

Sebastian:

they are in terms of a resource for not just improving health, but

Sebastian:

making your day to day life better.

Simon:

Yeah, it's a useful point to make that we don't want

Simon:

to put this out of reach of people. And when

Simon:

I Started in practise in Devon all those years ago.

Simon:

My main clients, my main patients were people from

Simon:

the Midlands who had retired

Simon:

to Devon and who had grown up

Simon:

with hers. because herbal medicine in the UK was at its strongest

Simon:

in the Midlands industrial. It was a post

Simon:

industrial phenomenon, in towns. And so

Simon:

a lot of people who used to retire were

Simon:

expecting to find a herbalist nearby and would look me

Simon:

up in the Yellow Pages and say, do you do herbs?

Simon:

And, you know, just expect me to fix them

Simon:

and all their needs. So I was being their

Simon:

general practitioner and it reminded me that, you

Simon:

know, A, they weren't expecting to be charged very much,

Simon:

and B, this was very much, and in that sense a working

Simon:

class provision, you know,

Simon:

as it was during the Industrial Revolution.

Simon:

so we really do need to return to the

Simon:

idea that this should not be a privileged

Simon:

thing, we should make this accessible

Simon:

to as many as we can. And when people say, well, good

Simon:

eating costs much, much more and, you know,

Simon:

that, you know, we're talking to the, you know, top

Simon:

15% of the population who can afford it, I

Simon:

just remind people that if you're in a villager in

Simon:

India, you know, you're eating food that

Simon:

is basically simple,

Simon:

foods with spices and lots and lots and lots and lots of

Simon:

spices, which is important, but it's for pittance.

Simon:

You don't need to spend money

Simon:

on good medicine, good health, if you

Simon:

just rethink it.

Sebastian:

I couldn't agree more. It is accessible. It does need a bit of

Sebastian:

a paradigm shift in one's priorities in life

Sebastian:

about the value of things, I think, isn't it? About

Sebastian:

the worth they have. And

Sebastian:

they are incredibly precious, the plants that we have in

Sebastian:

the world. We know that there is a, pressure on,

Sebastian:

ecosystems, but it can still be made very

Sebastian:

affordable through including, you know, turmeric,

Sebastian:

fennel, ginger or some, you know, very affordable, spices

Sebastian:

to include in it on a daily basis in your life

Sebastian:

and have, you know, significant

Sebastian:

benefits on, on all these factors of health that we've been talking

Sebastian:

about.

Simon:

Well, I'm glad you mentioned turmeric because that is probably the one

Simon:

that, you know, the single herb

Simon:

above all that I've adopted as the

Simon:

avatar, as the, one herb that

Simon:

almost covers all the bases, including

Simon:

in the gut, where it's most, where it spends most

Simon:

of its action. So, and as you say,

Simon:

it's as cheap as chips or cheaper,

Simon:

and, you know, has such huge

Simon:

health potential.

Sebastian:

It's a remarkable plant, isn't it? And I think you can See, when you get

Sebastian:

a plant like turmeric that meets so many of

Sebastian:

the pressing modern health needs

Sebastian:

in terms of inflammation, degenerative cognitive,

Sebastian:

function, et cetera, et cetera, it, really does

Sebastian:

meet that need between food and medicine as well.

Sebastian:

And I think that's such an interesting interface, isn't it? And,

Sebastian:

and is, I think, one of the reasons why herbalism

Sebastian:

struggles a bit, because it crosses over into so many

Sebastian:

different realms that it can be a cup

Sebastian:

of tea, it can be in your food, or, or it can be a

Sebastian:

medicine, depending on the dosage and the quantity

Sebastian:

and the, and the need. I think

Sebastian:

that's part of the challenge is, as you alluded to earlier,

Sebastian:

this complexity that is within

Sebastian:

herbalism, the diversity that is there. It really

Sebastian:

is a whole health programme really

Sebastian:

available to you through the different routes that you might

Sebastian:

adopt. And I'm so glad

Sebastian:

that you've fallen in love with some of these

Sebastian:

herbs over your career, because

Sebastian:

in Europe we all often start off with, I don't know, ah,

Sebastian:

dandelion and elderflower and nettle, and they become

Sebastian:

extremely good friends.

Simon:

Dandelion is the other great strength. Never discount

Simon:

dandelion. Interestingly,

Simon:

another theme, is that dandelion is used almost

Simon:

everywhere in the world, or

Simon:

very close related species for almost exactly the same

Simon:

thing. So even among the Maoris

Simon:

in New Zealand, they have a variety of dandelion,

Simon:

which they use for very much the same reasons that we do.

Simon:

so it's not

Simon:

culturally imposed. This is something that comes out of the

Simon:

plants. People rediscover it time and time again

Simon:

from that, original experience that they

Simon:

have of the plant when they first take it.

Simon:

So that's another great reassurance, isn't it, that

Simon:

we don't need to reinvent or

Simon:

invent any wheels here. This is already there. All

Simon:

we have to do is open up our senses.

Sebastian:

M. I've so enjoyed our conversation,

Sebastian:

Simon. It's such a privilege to hear

Sebastian:

your insights. You're so,

Sebastian:

humble, but still passionate and

Sebastian:

enthusiastic for the, for the future of herbalism.

Sebastian:

I really, really have enjoyed the conversation.

Simon:

Well, thank you for giving me the chance.

Sebastian:

Yeah, thank you so much for, for being with us. I love hearing

Sebastian:

your stories. We could carry on for ages and

Sebastian:

I'm sure we'll, we'll have another conversation soon. So

Sebastian:

thank you so much.

Simon:

Thank you, Sebastian.

Sebastian:

So you've been listening to the Herbcast, the podcast from Herbal

Sebastian:

Reality. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If so,

Sebastian:

perhaps you'd like to leave us a rating that would really help us to spread our

Sebastian:

message for herbal health. We hope you'll join us

Sebastian:

again for the next episode. And in the meantime, if you'd like a

Sebastian:

few more herbal insights from us, do have a

Sebastian:

look@HerbalReality.com or learn more from us via

Sebastian:

Instagram, where we're at Herbal Reality. And

Sebastian:

we're on Twitter and Facebook, too. We'll be back with another episode

Sebastian:

of the Hubcar soon.

Sebastian:

Thanks for joining.

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Herbcast
A voice for Herbal Medicine
Delving into the plant-powered world of herbalism.
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