Episode 2
Sebastian Pole on Ayurveda, Herbalism & The Power of Plants
"I discovered there was another language for describing our health and another way to feel empowered to look after it."
Simon Mills (our Herbcast host) interviews Sebastian Pole (our other Herbcast host!) as a welcome and introduction to the inspiration behind Herbal Reality.
Sebastian is a registered member of the Ayurvedic Professionals Association, Register of Chinese Herbal Medicine, and a Fellow of the Unified Register of Herbal Practitioners. He qualified as a herbalist, using the principles of Ayurveda (the ancient art of living wisely) and, the Herbal tradition to help transform health. He co-founded Pukka Herbs in 2001; he's an author; a qualified Yoga therapist, fluent in Hindi and lives in a forest garden farm growing over 100 species of medicinal plants and trees
In this episode, Simon talks to Sebastian about starting Herbal Reality to support his mission of bringing the incredible power of plants into people's lives.
Sebastian talks on:
- His inspiration and love of nature and people.
- Discovering Ayurveda and herbalism - an awakening to the wonder of nature.
- Historical continuum – anthropological and ethnobotanical links between herbal traditions around the world.
- The organic herb movement and organic farming.
- Starting Pukka, its value-chain, and the drive for quality.
- The Fair Wild Movement – sustainable and equitable herbalism.
- The Herbal Alliance, addressing the future of herbalism and the climate crisis.
Find out more about Herbal Reality on Instagram @herbal.reality or visit www.herbalreality.com
Herbcast is produced by Decibelle Creative: @decibelle_creative / www.decibellecreative.com
Transcript
>> Sebastian: Hello there. Welcome to the herbcast, the podcast
Speaker:from Herbal Reality, delving into the plant powered world of
Speaker:herbalism.
Speaker:So, do you know your echinacea from your eleutherococcus
Speaker:or your polyphenol from your polysaccharides? Whether
Speaker:you're a budding herbalist, an inquisitive health professional,
Speaker:or a botanical beginner, herbcast is here to
Speaker:inform and inspire you on your journey to integrating herbs in our
Speaker:everyday lives. So settle down, turn up,
Speaker:and let's start today's episode of the Herbal Reality
Speaker:Herbcast.
Speaker:>> Simon: Hello, Sebastian. Thanks very much for joining
Speaker:us today. You're probably best known as the founder,
Speaker:20 years ago, isn't it, of, Pukka Herbs.
Speaker:it's now a rapidly growing global provider
Speaker:of teas and supplements around the world with the
Speaker:aim to reconnect people to
Speaker:the power of organic plants so as to lead
Speaker:healthier and happier lives. However, you've also been a
Speaker:practitioner of long standing. And
Speaker:notwithstanding all the work with Pukka, you've moved on
Speaker:to create the Herbal alliance,
Speaker:to bring together the practitioner
Speaker:associations, and help them to find
Speaker:their common voice. And of course,
Speaker:this herbal Reality, another voice for herbal
Speaker:medicine, where we want to bring
Speaker:the power and the wonder of herbs, and plants to
Speaker:the wider world. So, you
Speaker:know, we all have dreams, we all
Speaker:have wonderful things we would like to do. I
Speaker:think most of us would be very impressed by how you've managed to
Speaker:convert some of those dreams into realities in the
Speaker:way that you have. So the obvious
Speaker:question I have is, what
Speaker:inspires you? What drives you on? Where was
Speaker:this love of herbs, coming from?
Speaker:Can you tell us more about
Speaker:where this passion began?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Thanks, Simon, and great to be having a chance
Speaker:to chat with you. Of course, we've known each other for many
Speaker:years already, so it's really nice to have a chance to talk about some other things
Speaker:that we normally do. I mean, ultimately it has to come
Speaker:from a love of nature and a love
Speaker:of people, really. You know, there wasn't a
Speaker:sudden sort of Road to Damascus moment where
Speaker:I was awoken with a desire to
Speaker:work as a herbalist and in
Speaker:healing and in bringing people and plants together.
Speaker:But it was a step by step
Speaker:journey of different experiences along the way. Some
Speaker:of them to do with, me getting ill
Speaker:and not being able to sort myself
Speaker:out.
Speaker:>> Simon: was this a long time back in it? was this India
Speaker:that I had here?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Yeah, probably, sort of acute things in India that
Speaker:you could quickly treat with some herbs. You know, the Ubiquitous
Speaker:deli belly. And I once had an
Speaker:upset tummy. I didn't really know what to do.
Speaker:I met an Ayurvedic doctor and he gave me some, you know,
Speaker:very simple herbs of, It was a licorice,
Speaker:Amla and Shatavari. That's slightly
Speaker:surprisingly. But we can talk about that detail a bit later.
Speaker:And, you know, so experiencing the simple
Speaker:benefits of some herbs, also getting
Speaker:interested in cooking and
Speaker:noticing how when I ate different foods, how it made me feel
Speaker:differently. I also developed
Speaker:psoriasis when I was much younger and was exposed
Speaker:to the conventional medical system, if you like, in a very
Speaker:direct way, very helpful. Lots of dermatologists
Speaker:were, It was a real eye opener to
Speaker:me of the difference between sort of suppression
Speaker:of a pathology or the internal,
Speaker:milieu, if you like, the internal environment that you're
Speaker:expressing.
Speaker:>> Simon: And was this when you were very young?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: I mean, as a teenager, I got that, actually.
Speaker:Yeah. Young teenager. And then not being able to be cured,
Speaker:as, you know, there isn't necessarily a cure with conventional medicine.
Speaker:And just being interested in what I could do
Speaker:to help. And,
Speaker:you know, it was a time in my life when I. I didn't really
Speaker:know what I wanted to do, but I got more
Speaker:and more interested in how, as I was
Speaker:saying, and how our diet affects our health,
Speaker:how our exercise, and our lifestyle
Speaker:affects our health. And as I started to discover
Speaker:Ayurveda and traditional herbalism,
Speaker:I was astounded, Simon, that I didn't
Speaker:know these things. I'd had a very fortunate education. I've
Speaker:got, you know, lots of exposure through different family
Speaker:members to all sorts of things in life. I literally didn't know
Speaker:anything about natural medicine. And I just couldn't believe
Speaker:that I'd ended up in this position as a young man
Speaker:without really knowing how to look after myself. And I.
Speaker:And as I went on the journey of studying yoga,
Speaker:getting more exposed to
Speaker:my senses and feelings and noticing
Speaker:how refinement of my senses
Speaker:enhanced my experience of life.
Speaker:I then dove into the principles of
Speaker:Ayurveda, I suppose, was my first love, if you like, in
Speaker:herbalism, and started to
Speaker:realise that there's another language for describing our health and there's
Speaker:another way of feeling, to a limited
Speaker:degree, but empowered about what we can do to look after our
Speaker:health. So it was a combination of some direct
Speaker:suffering, some personal experience of
Speaker:getting better, but also meeting some
Speaker:inspiring teachers along the way that have really,
Speaker:you know, guided my
Speaker:direction. And then as soon as I started
Speaker:doing some simple self care and, starting
Speaker:to help a few people around me.
Speaker:I think that saw some dramatic recoveries in people.
Speaker:When I was, I was travelling in India. It'd be in a village, you know, one or
Speaker:two days walk from the nearest road. There'd be no hospital.
Speaker:You know, this is 30 or so years ago. You know, there's
Speaker:very little medicines around there. and some
Speaker:simple poultices I've made for people
Speaker:with bad infections and,
Speaker:you know, poultice of like neem leaf and
Speaker:turmeric and garlic. You know, things that were at hand that you could pull out,
Speaker:if not out of your kitchen cupboard, out of your local
Speaker:garden, seeing dramatic improvements.
Speaker:>> Simon: So already, you're already being a
Speaker:practitioner even at that point?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Well, this is probably a few years on, from when I started
Speaker:experimenting on myself, you could say, or using herbs
Speaker:myself or seeing clinicians to treat myself. Maybe that
Speaker:was sort of three or four years afterwards. Yeah, in sort of
Speaker:desperandum, really. It was only because there was nothing
Speaker:else there. I wouldn't normally have done that, but just you
Speaker:start to see benefits in other people. And I was like, well, look, this is
Speaker:if, if it's this powerful with my limited knowledge,
Speaker:what could happen if I studied these amazing ancient
Speaker:systems and learned how to
Speaker:share and use some of those insights? And so, yeah,
Speaker:I had this sort of realisation. It was
Speaker:a coalescing of my previous experiences
Speaker:where I was like, yeah, I'd love to spend my life committed and
Speaker:dedicated to helping
Speaker:connect people and plants and their health.
Speaker:>> Simon: To step back a little from that. I mean, most people's
Speaker:exposure to Ayurvedic and Indian influences is
Speaker:through yoga and through that sort of, entry
Speaker:point. Did you have that start or, was there a
Speaker:switch through to herbs, from that, or did
Speaker:you go into herbs first and, hit the Ayurveda button
Speaker:later?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: They ran pretty concurrently because I spent some
Speaker:time living with some of
Speaker:the Sadhu's holy men in India, really.
Speaker:And the parallel of yoga and
Speaker:Ayurveda self care, they, they
Speaker:run, they run together, really. And within yoga there
Speaker:is a great tradition of internal cleansing and
Speaker:rejuvenation and dietary advice as well. So
Speaker:that it was pretty much in, in
Speaker:parallel. And,
Speaker:you know, I think it was an awakening to the
Speaker:wonder of nature as well, largely. Simon. You know, there was
Speaker:this opening as a young man out of my education in
Speaker:a way, and I hadn't had any formative
Speaker:spiritual experiences, if you want to put it like that.
Speaker:I'm not claiming Anything magnificent either. But they're
Speaker:just an awareness of this, you're a part of this
Speaker:greater vitality. And
Speaker:I got very interested in this relationship
Speaker:between the vitality that I saw in nature and the
Speaker:articulation of that in Ayurveda. So starting to understand
Speaker:some of the energetics and that. And that just really appealed to me. You
Speaker:know, I'm no, I'm no bio
Speaker:physicist or you know, biochemist in that
Speaker:sense.
Speaker:>> Simon: So this was your first exposure to health questions
Speaker:was through this experience or these
Speaker:experiences?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: It was really before that, you know, it always been
Speaker:my.
Speaker:>> Simon: You'd been a victim?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Yes, I've been
Speaker:taken down to the, the doctor in a way.
Speaker:So and it was great. And you know, people
Speaker:were obviously doctors, obviously showing all their care and compassion to look after
Speaker:me as best they could. But it was a disempowered situation. I mean it
Speaker:wasn't that I was being educated to go, oh,
Speaker:if you feel hot, do this or you feel pain here,
Speaker:do that. It wasn't sort of
Speaker:instilled and it was
Speaker:a, you know, it was a much more sort of top down approach which
Speaker:obviously we know is needed sometimes in medical care
Speaker:and all education, in all care, particularly with
Speaker:children, they sometimes need to have that top down care.
Speaker:But I found the approach of Ayurveda,
Speaker:just very,
Speaker:just very clear, very
Speaker:engaging and just very
Speaker:informative really. And I just thought this is common sense and
Speaker:you know, I can learn this and then I could share a bit of it.
Speaker:>> Simon: Well you did, you did go and learn because
Speaker:it's hard work digging to
Speaker:learn the materia medica, the
Speaker:actions of the plants. And from your book
Speaker:Ayurvedic Medicine, it looks as though you've absorbed or at
Speaker:least written down, quite a lot of material.
Speaker:So you must have taken quite a lot of time out simply
Speaker:studying.
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Yes, well another part of the story is that when I went
Speaker:to university I studied Hindi and Indian
Speaker:religion. So in this
Speaker:formative time, if you like, when I'm exploring India
Speaker:and yoga and culture there, I also studied Hindi
Speaker:and that although I don't know Sanskrit
Speaker:particularly well, that enabled me to access lots of
Speaker:the text and at least to recognise the names of the
Speaker:herbs. And so I found that when I was
Speaker:studying Ayurveda there wasn't a particularly
Speaker:easy way of accessing lots of knowledge about the plants. It sort
Speaker:of scattered throughout the texts and
Speaker:under various translations.
Speaker:>> Simon: The impression I've had in looking at myself is
Speaker:a lot of it was sort of adulterated
Speaker:or polluted by the, presumably by the Raj,
Speaker:you know, the, the English influence on the
Speaker:original cultures. And so you must have had quite
Speaker:hard work finding sources of the information
Speaker:rather than those that have been caricatured in one way or
Speaker:another to make it agreeable to an English
Speaker:speaking audience.
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Yeah, well, there are quite a few, translations of
Speaker:important texts, like Madhavinidana,
Speaker:Peshaja, Ratnavoli. There are these sort of important
Speaker:texts that summarise, some of the earlier
Speaker:Ayurvedic texts, Charaka, Sushruta. So I did
Speaker:rely quite heavily on those. But I'm, you
Speaker:know, I'm a real, I'm a really
Speaker:eclectic. I've got such an eclectic background in
Speaker:herbalism. The skill I've got is drawing lots of
Speaker:information together. You know, I don't have a
Speaker:particularly strong expertise in one
Speaker:area but I'm, I'm quite, that's something I enjoy
Speaker:doing that sort of research work to amalgamate and
Speaker:draw, draw information together. And so because,
Speaker:in my herbal studies I
Speaker:studied my. The first herbal course I really
Speaker:did more formally outside
Speaker:India was with Tiaras Mike and Leslie Tierra
Speaker:and their, their work on planetary herbology. And so, you know, that gave
Speaker:me quite a big background into Western
Speaker:herbalism and a dabbling in Chinese herbal medicine.
Speaker:And so it gave me this approach
Speaker:to writing that book on Ayurvedic medicine, that I could
Speaker:draw together a way of
Speaker:presenting a monograph that was perhaps
Speaker:more sort of cohesive than you might
Speaker:find in an I've edit text where there's this very
Speaker:specific sort of Ayurvedic approach.
Speaker:>> Simon: And when you were, when you were looking at these
Speaker:different herbal traditions, did you find common
Speaker:ground? Did you see, did you recognise
Speaker:similar approaches?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: I mean that was one of the brilliant things. You're like, oh, everyone
Speaker:uses licorice around the world and it are. Well, it's called
Speaker:the same. If you translate the Latin or you translate the Sanskrit or
Speaker:you translate the Chinese, it all means sweet root. And you know, it's
Speaker:fairly obvious in a way. But you find these
Speaker:anthropological and ethnobotanical links across
Speaker:the world, which I know the evidence base for herbalism is
Speaker:maybe we'll get onto that at some point. You know, it's potentially questioned.
Speaker:But if you look around the world and you see how plants are used
Speaker:in a similar way in different traditions, you recognise
Speaker:that even though there may not have been direct
Speaker:communication, there is a, there is a knowledge about how those plants
Speaker:work. I Mean, there's so many examples.
Speaker:Dandelion, fennel,
Speaker:mint. You know, there are lots of plants, motherwort, that are used in all
Speaker:traditions around the world, or many of them in a similar way.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:>> Simon: And when you, and when you get to those common
Speaker:insights, don't you get a sense that
Speaker:that is getting close to the heart of the
Speaker:matter? That's where the power of the plants
Speaker:really comes through. Because
Speaker:they manifested themselves in the same way
Speaker:to many different cultures.
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Yes. It's like they've got a, a
Speaker:character, a personality, and
Speaker:that manifests, you know,
Speaker:around the world in the same way, in a way, you know, different cultures
Speaker:observed how to use the plants in the same way. And I, I think
Speaker:that really gets down to the, the
Speaker:heart of how plants work in us, really,
Speaker:and, and how we can take advantage of
Speaker:their evolutionary protection and
Speaker:their evolutionary adaptive
Speaker:skills. We can take advantage of that for
Speaker:boosting our own health in a, in a very accessible and
Speaker:a very sustainable way. And that's, that's something that
Speaker:really touched me along the journey as I started
Speaker:to see that, you know, I think there are, there are
Speaker:matera medica in China, where
Speaker:in 1000 AD 50% of the herbs are
Speaker:from India. You know, so there's this great cultural exchange
Speaker:going on and the other ways as well. Of course, many herbs in
Speaker:China are entering Ayurveda and then coming into,
Speaker:you know, through the Avicenna and the
Speaker:tradition in, North Africa, coming into
Speaker:Europe, basically. So there's this great crossover of
Speaker:knowledge. And I, I see the, you know,
Speaker:on a macro level, I don't see any difference between the
Speaker:traditions of medicine around the world. I see it as
Speaker:humanity's answer to relieving suffering in our
Speaker:fellow friends and, family and citizens.
Speaker:And I think they've just taken a slightly different
Speaker:approach.
Speaker:>> Simon: It's something that I, I share with you. I think
Speaker:that, that there is a common
Speaker:herbal, experience that in
Speaker:different ways we share, but it's the antidote to the view that
Speaker:herbs are all, you know, fragmented and this,
Speaker:that and the other and what people think they are and, you know, that there's
Speaker:no substance to them. I think what you're talking about does
Speaker:sound like substance to me.
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Yeah, I mean, there's a historical continuum, isn't there, of
Speaker:usage of some plants in the same way for
Speaker:some documented hundreds, if not thousands of
Speaker:years in some cases. And
Speaker:you can see that now as you get plants
Speaker:like, you know, ashwagandha or ginseng, which may
Speaker:have perhaps been more localised originally in their usage,
Speaker:but you can see there that their benefits are
Speaker:appreciated around the world as they become globally popular.
Speaker:So I think there's a sort of two way street to
Speaker:it.
Speaker:>> Simon: So let's pick up the story. You've got
Speaker:your passions now, you've been doing your
Speaker:homework and building up your experience
Speaker:and knowledge. When was the book put together?
Speaker:Over what sort of period of time, particularly in relation to the
Speaker:Pukka story? I think it came out soon after Pucker
Speaker:was founded, wasn't it?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Yeah, I'd been
Speaker:to be set Pucker up in 2001,
Speaker:August of 2001, and
Speaker:for a few years before that I've
Speaker:been working on an organic farm, growing herbs in the UK
Speaker:and, and studying to be a herbalist, through
Speaker:this, planetary herbology course.
Speaker:And during that time, you know,
Speaker:IEDA was always my, my first love, as I was
Speaker:saying. And so I was always carrying
Speaker:on some research in the background. So it was a work of about five or
Speaker:six years. And as I was starting
Speaker:Pukka, the first couple of years before we
Speaker:actually formed the company, you know, was trying to find
Speaker:the plants. Of course we didn't have anything to sell yet,
Speaker:so I was spending time travelling around India
Speaker:trying to find some growers, quite honestly that
Speaker:could grow to the standards we wanted. And in
Speaker:that time I, I would be, be
Speaker:doing lots of research and writing.
Speaker:>> Simon: So the formation of Pukka with Tim,
Speaker:you'll learn about the advertisement and the paper and so on.
Speaker:And But were you already planning that before you
Speaker:met Tim? I mean, were you really beginning to look for
Speaker:plants that you could bring into the country? Or was,
Speaker:was it the Tim meeting?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: No, it was actually prior to that
Speaker:because I couldn't get good
Speaker:Ayurvedic herbs in my practise that I wanted to have.
Speaker:And so I actually went out to India and
Speaker:looked for some Ashwagandha growers and things like that,
Speaker:you know, Triphala, etc. And started to bring some herbs
Speaker:back and sold, you know, 25 kilos here or
Speaker:50 kilos here. But you know, it wasn't done with the great
Speaker:traceability and the whole organic and
Speaker:the whole lineage that we've set up with Pukka. So
Speaker:there was, I had some experience in growing herbs before
Speaker:of course, and but then when we
Speaker:were focused on what we were going to do with bringing
Speaker:more, more herbs in for teas and supplements and making it more
Speaker:available, that's when we went out and found more organic and
Speaker:fair trade growers that way.
Speaker:>> Simon: So where did the organic come in?
Speaker:You said at the beginning it wasn't the first thing, but
Speaker:when, when did you cleave to organic as part
Speaker:of the story?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: I mean that's, you know, a
Speaker:significant part of my journey because of how
Speaker:it really relates to health
Speaker:and the land and the ecosystem and that we're
Speaker:an extension of the whole ecosystem and that I was really,
Speaker:I got really inspired by someone called Mike Brook,
Speaker:who set up originally, a business called
Speaker:Hamilton Herbs that's now the organic Herb Trading Company.
Speaker:And I actually, when I'd gone out from
Speaker:India and I was starting to study this herbal
Speaker:course, I wanted to also, you know, I was
Speaker:25 or so, so I needed a job as well
Speaker:and I, wanted to work on the land with
Speaker:plants. I didn't want to just be in college. And so I, I
Speaker:rang up out of the yellow pages actually,
Speaker:which is the directory, you know, in the old days for
Speaker:finding where someone's number was. And I rang Mike up and
Speaker:said, and have you got any work? And he had a
Speaker:woofing scheme, this welcome workers on or,
Speaker:organic farm scheme. And
Speaker:he gave me a job. I went down and on, 35
Speaker:quid a week or whatever it was. I lived in a caravan
Speaker:on the land. And you know,
Speaker:Mike is one of the pioneers of organic herbs in
Speaker:the world, was the first person to bring in organic herbs into the uk,
Speaker:set up whole value chains and they still are, leaders
Speaker:in the ethical supply of herbs today.
Speaker:And it was very formative time in my life. So I
Speaker:was. The land hadn't been turned over yet, they had just moved there.
Speaker:They had a, I don't know, 20 odd acres, but they had just had a 2 acre
Speaker:plot for growing various herbs. So I was one of the
Speaker:gardeners turning over the land, making the beds, learning how
Speaker:to, you know, divide roots of skull
Speaker:cap and plant echinacea seeds and all of that says
Speaker:that was very educational. And they had a warehouse as well. So I was learning.
Speaker:I got to see, I don't know, they had about 300 species of
Speaker:herbs I think. So I got to see all the raw materials and what they would actually
Speaker:look like. So that was also part of my sort of early
Speaker:pharmacogny, if you like, in my study of the, of
Speaker:the sort of drug form of plants.
Speaker:>> Simon: I can see a podcast with Mike coming along because, I
Speaker:mean that would be another story, wouldn't it, as to how he got to
Speaker:that place.
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Great to speak to. Yes. And you know he was
Speaker:already committed to the organic movement and that
Speaker:sort of. I joined the, joined the train really.
Speaker:And I think there's a very important paradigm
Speaker:comparison here with modern medicine. And
Speaker:should we call it traditional herbal medicine and modern
Speaker:farming and should we call it traditional organic
Speaker:farming? In, in the sense of how
Speaker:herbalism and organic farming really focus on, you know,
Speaker:nurturing the whole system, there is that belief of,
Speaker:or view of prevention and
Speaker:supporting the
Speaker:ecology, the microbiome,
Speaker:of the soil as well as the digestive system, if you like. And I
Speaker:think there's this powerful paradigm analogy there
Speaker:that we, we want to work with
Speaker:more than against. So I think there's a,
Speaker:there's a possibility of exploring how
Speaker:herbalism and organic farming can become a greater part
Speaker:of society's paradigm for how we care for our health.
Speaker:Of course, modern medicine, modern agriculture have grown out of many
Speaker:needs to alleviate suffering, alleviate hunger, and
Speaker:there are many advantages and expertise there.
Speaker:But we, we know that modern farming is
Speaker:causing a major, you know, is a major contributor to
Speaker:biodiversity loss and deforestation.
Speaker:And also we think that there may
Speaker:be implications on the microbiome from pesticides etc.
Speaker:And so I, you know, I got very inspired by
Speaker:the organic view of it being a
Speaker:circular approach. You know, you, you put
Speaker:back in what you take out,
Speaker:you, you mitigate risk early on, you look
Speaker:for prevention and diversity in your whole ecosystem.
Speaker:And I, I've taken those principles into my clinical practise. I
Speaker:mean, you know, for me, how
Speaker:herbalism works is just an extension of
Speaker:how nature works. And so having the
Speaker:privilege of that being a
Speaker:lifelong focus and meditation, if you like, is something that
Speaker:I will always cherish. So
Speaker:that's how I got into organic.
Speaker:>> Simon: And privileged to have joined the pukka team in
Speaker:the last five years and can confirm that
Speaker:those, that notion of the three biomes, you
Speaker:know, where we support all these living systems
Speaker:equally still is the core
Speaker:passion, the core theme in the pukka
Speaker:thinking. And so, come back to what I was saying
Speaker:earlier. You know, unlike many of us, you have a
Speaker:dream or dreams and then see it through.
Speaker:And I'm just wondering what, the
Speaker:demands of getting pucker up and running
Speaker:to see those original ideas,
Speaker:manifested what they did to your energies and
Speaker:your core loves of herbs. How, how
Speaker:did the reality of pukka
Speaker:work for you?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: I mean, it's just been so educational, Simon. You know,
Speaker:it's been so formative and the whole herbal
Speaker:industry is so collaborative and
Speaker:yeah, it's been, it's been eye Opening though as well, of
Speaker:course, because you see that the scale that it's
Speaker:at, the impact that the herbal
Speaker:harvesting has on the wild, some of the
Speaker:disparities in, in wages and standards and
Speaker:quality. So, so it's been, been truly eye
Speaker:opening in that sense. You know, we, we really
Speaker:had a drive to quality. I suppose it was that, that insight
Speaker:that herbalism and health
Speaker:aspires to really. And
Speaker:maybe, maybe it came from my interest in yoga and that there
Speaker:was a sort of possibility of human evolution and you could, you
Speaker:could enhance your potential in a way.
Speaker:But I, I just felt there was a
Speaker:strong need for the tradition to be respected
Speaker:and I didn't think what was on the
Speaker:shelves was doing that. I know that might sound a bit
Speaker:arrogant and I don't mean to be arrogant. I know lots of people would trying to do
Speaker:good things. But you know, back at
Speaker:the, in the 1990s, you know,
Speaker:all the herbal tea on the shelf was perhaps not
Speaker:high grade, it was just normal food grade herbs,
Speaker:you know. You know, 99% of it wouldn't have been
Speaker:organic, you know, so we were,
Speaker:we were early adopters in a way of that push
Speaker:to try and
Speaker:raise the profile of quality in herbalism that you know, there'd
Speaker:been the renaissance, should we say, coming out of the 60s and 70s
Speaker:and many of the colleagues,
Speaker:inspiring colleagues, particularly out of America and
Speaker:the UK had really sort of given
Speaker:rebirth I think to the herbal practise. But I
Speaker:think the quality of the herbal side was lagging behind at that
Speaker:point and that really needed a push.
Speaker:And with pucker, I wanted to make sure that
Speaker:whatever we served to anybody was something that I'd want to
Speaker:have myself and I'd want my family or my, or my patients
Speaker:to have. And so that was a very big
Speaker:journey for me looking at quality standards and really understanding
Speaker:how there is a difference in food
Speaker:grade herbs or pharmacopeel grade herbs or practitioner
Speaker:grade herbs. You know, there are ranges of everything
Speaker:and it really showed me
Speaker:how the deeper your relationship with
Speaker:the source of things, the
Speaker:greater the reward is in a
Speaker:way because you have build up this relationship with
Speaker:people. They, they understand your needs,
Speaker:you can understand their needs
Speaker:and if you're lucky, you become
Speaker:friends. You certainly get some journeys, you know, some
Speaker:adventures that you, you, you've shared together.
Speaker:So, you know, that's put us in incredibly good stead
Speaker:where we really got this, you know,
Speaker:global network of suppliers,
Speaker:farmers that are part of our value chain now.
Speaker:So that will, that organic growing side has been really
Speaker:Valuable. But, you know, as you know,
Speaker:most of the herbs in the world by species, come out of the
Speaker:wild, Simon, and about 25%
Speaker:by volume. So millions and millions of kilos come out of the wild.
Speaker:And one of the things that's been inspiring for me at
Speaker:Pucker is that ability for us to grow and stretch
Speaker:ourselves as the whole industry grows and stretches. And it's
Speaker:been one of the great honours in my life to
Speaker:contribute to the Fair Wild movement. And
Speaker:Fairwild is a standard that was set, up through
Speaker:a collaboration across various, NGOs such
Speaker:as, Traffic and WWF,
Speaker:and is a standard that looks at how you
Speaker:can get herbs out of the wild sustainably, where the
Speaker:collectors and, the landowners, the community owners of
Speaker:the land also get paid. And it's a very equitable
Speaker:way of ensuring quality and
Speaker:social fairness. And I'm
Speaker:just so pleased that we can contribute to
Speaker:this scheme because it is a way
Speaker:of ensuring that however big herbalism
Speaker:becomes, which is we need it to be a lot bigger,
Speaker:to serve human health more effectively, that
Speaker:in that process we are also looking
Speaker:after the land, the nature, the ecosystems,
Speaker:the plants come from. So we've had all sorts of fun
Speaker:travelling around projects to harvest
Speaker:licorice and climbing up trees to get lime
Speaker:flower and elderberries and stinging
Speaker:ourselves wild, harvesting nettles.
Speaker:So, you know, there are
Speaker:large numbers of people. I don't actually know what it is, but it will be,
Speaker:you know, some millions of people that are involved
Speaker:in wild harvesting herbs from the wild and depend
Speaker:on it for a large percentage of their income. And I
Speaker:think it's incumbent on the whole industry, whether you're,
Speaker:you know, a user, a practitioner or a
Speaker:producer to make sure you know where your
Speaker:plants come from. At least do your best to work with those
Speaker:cultures to sort of, yeah, impart
Speaker:quality standards and learn from them what they
Speaker:need as a society.
Speaker:>> Simon: Yes, you answered my next question, which is, you know, the price
Speaker:of success. You know, if we are going where we
Speaker:want to, which is where herbs become, you know,
Speaker:a default again, then there are, pressures
Speaker:on the supply, on the environment that produces
Speaker:the herbs and on protecting the communities that produce
Speaker:them. And again, with Impaka,
Speaker:we've clearly, seen that
Speaker:steps, can be taken there with the Fairwild and the other
Speaker:certification systems, and with other
Speaker:things like 1% of the planet. And taking
Speaker:responsibility for success, I think is
Speaker:something that Pukka has also taught us. And there
Speaker:are many other people in Pukka now helping to carry
Speaker:the torch. So. But it was your original,
Speaker:your original dreams which fired us,
Speaker:to do this. So m. You must have had. And
Speaker:presumably in dark moments in the night when you worry about the
Speaker:impact of your next order on the particular crop
Speaker:or a particular supply,
Speaker:there must be quite a big
Speaker:agenda here that we as herbalists need to take
Speaker:on and which have not been taken on so much I think in the
Speaker:past that through, pukka you have
Speaker:addressed.
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Yes, I think there is a. You know, across the world really,
Speaker:the herbal practitioner community
Speaker:has become unfortunately
Speaker:fragmented because it has been, not
Speaker:always included in or integrated in
Speaker:medical systems. And so naturally herbalists have
Speaker:been sort of segmented if you like, or pushed to
Speaker:the edge or marginalised. And I think that's made it difficult
Speaker:for us to align and come together over such things as
Speaker:quality standards, you know, fair trade standards.
Speaker:and I
Speaker:feel extremely optimistic
Speaker:given the nature and you know, health
Speaker:crisis we're in at the minute, that herbal
Speaker:practitioners are coming together around the world to
Speaker:address some of these matters in a way
Speaker:you could set up to industry and suppliers to, to do
Speaker:that work. But I also think it's incumbent
Speaker:on the customer in a way to
Speaker:demand the standards they want as well.
Speaker:And you know, you mentioned at the beginning the
Speaker:Herbal alliance has been this group
Speaker:of, us, coming together to bring the different UK
Speaker:organisations together. And yeah,
Speaker:it's been really quite moving actually having a chance
Speaker:to meet so many people who've dedicated their lives
Speaker:to natural medicine and
Speaker:helping members of their society's health
Speaker:thrive. So many amazing people
Speaker:and to feel this potential
Speaker:of what could come out of an
Speaker:alignment really of thinking. Because of course there are, you know,
Speaker:within all groups of people there is diversity of thinking and there are
Speaker:different cultural approaches in Chinese medicine, Ayurveda,
Speaker:Western, Western herbalism.
Speaker:So I feel
Speaker:that there is an urgent need for
Speaker:herbal communities around the world, America, Australia,
Speaker:everywhere, to address the climate
Speaker:crisis. And I think we need to be
Speaker:addressing the biodiversity
Speaker:issues. We need to be ultimately,
Speaker:from a selfish point of view, you know, the
Speaker:climate crisis is going to affect and impact the
Speaker:quality of herbs and their availability. And we need
Speaker:to be on the front foot of addressing
Speaker:that supply for the future because,
Speaker:you know, growing regions are changing.
Speaker:Huge, pressure on, as I've already mentioned, on wild
Speaker:populations and the only way to ensure
Speaker:that we have a reliable future that we can
Speaker:be proud of is to engage with
Speaker:where each and every species we're using
Speaker:in our clinic is coming from. And that might m. Be difficult to
Speaker:find out immediately, but the way to start is to do
Speaker:it. And I've got that experience from
Speaker:Pucker because I know that we didn't know where every single herb
Speaker:came from when we when we started,
Speaker:but we certainly do,
Speaker:now in that sense. You know, we track that down over time
Speaker:and we work with people to create that
Speaker:lineage, if you like.
Speaker:>> Simon: So you're really calling out to all those who want
Speaker:to pursue a herbal path that it's not just a question of
Speaker:finding the right herb to give to your patient, it's a question
Speaker:of how you bed that
Speaker:in with your responsibilities and your
Speaker:appreciation of the wider world
Speaker:need, the, the need to be sustainable,
Speaker:preferably organic.
Speaker:>> Sebastian: I do, Simon, I think it's the same
Speaker:for every single thing we buy actually. But
Speaker:in this context, as a
Speaker:herbal practitioner or user of
Speaker:herbs, you have a choice and you can choose
Speaker:where you buy things from and, and you can drive
Speaker:that change in the marketplace through your,
Speaker:you know, the pound is a powerful political
Speaker:tool and I think that's how it should be used really.
Speaker:If you can use, you know, if that's possible to use it that
Speaker:way. And we've got a lot
Speaker:to do, let's face it, you know, we can't just sit on our laurels.
Speaker:It's lovely that pukka's all organic and that there's some nice
Speaker:organic tea here and there, you know, there's a
Speaker:lot to be done and I don't think any of us can sit
Speaker:back on our, on our laurels to suggest any
Speaker:other way.
Speaker:>> Simon: Certainly no one can accuse you of sitting on your laurel.
Speaker:What lessons have we learned? What perhaps
Speaker:might. Could we have done better or would we
Speaker:do better if we had it again? What are the things
Speaker:we need to really focus on, work
Speaker:wise as a community, in the next
Speaker:five or 10 years? Where would you apply the lessons
Speaker:to what we do next?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: I mean hindsight's a great thing to have, isn't it? And we do
Speaker:have it. So looking
Speaker:back over history and perhaps how herbalism's got
Speaker:marginalised under the pressure of a more sort of
Speaker:pharmaceutical diagnostic based
Speaker:medicine. alignment
Speaker:I'd say is the first thing, you know, stick together, that we
Speaker:share more than we differ on
Speaker:basically, and so find alignment that way.
Speaker:Focus on practitioner standards and
Speaker:clinical standards, although they are very high already, I'd
Speaker:say through all the individual colleges that accredit and
Speaker:train, find more
Speaker:universal alignment again there.
Speaker:Drive awareness of quality in
Speaker:practise a bit more as in the Ingredients and
Speaker:the products. I think that would be a, great enhancement. And
Speaker:so perhaps there's a greater need to train in
Speaker:more, pharmacogeny and herbal science in
Speaker:that sense, that sort of identification and those quality
Speaker:issues. And
Speaker:I think we need to find a
Speaker:way to help people feel more empowered. Ultimately, you know, the
Speaker:ultimate gift of herbalism is that
Speaker:it uses, you know, natural
Speaker:tendencies that are very accessible to people.
Speaker:So how can we capitalise
Speaker:on our, you know, the innate
Speaker:tendency of herbalists to be teachers? You know, spending
Speaker:an hour with a client is really
Speaker:about, exploring their
Speaker:life story and their life story in terms of
Speaker:their, you know, what has led to good
Speaker:health with them and what has led to poor health. So, you know, what are
Speaker:the, what are the resistors to their progress and what
Speaker:are the accelerators of it? And you, you explore that
Speaker:through, you know, really very personal and, you know,
Speaker:intimate conversation. Whether you're taking pulses
Speaker:or taking tongues or whatever it
Speaker:might be, you are, in a very personal conversation.
Speaker:>> Simon: So it's a sort of. We're in the business of
Speaker:empowerment, aren't we? So it
Speaker:isn't part of what we need to do to
Speaker:promulgate that message, that if you
Speaker:want to take charge of your health, there are
Speaker:ways that have been adopted for
Speaker:millennia, there are remedies which have
Speaker:been used for millennia and the same.
Speaker:So what, how do we, how do we get that
Speaker:message? How do we articulate? How do we, you know, apart
Speaker:from spending squadillions on
Speaker:campaigns, is there a way we
Speaker:can pick up the
Speaker:message?
Speaker:>> Sebastian: I think it is, you know, as in all aspects
Speaker:of change, it's quite nuanced and it's multi
Speaker:dimensional. And so I think, you know, I'm a big believer
Speaker:in, you know, looking at where are the blockages? It's like a
Speaker:herbal diagnosis, you know, look at where the, you
Speaker:know, where are the fundamental problems that we've got?
Speaker:Where is the lack of trust, lack of
Speaker:belief? where do we need to meet the
Speaker:current medical paradigm? For example? You know, where is the
Speaker:more evidence needed from us? Where is the more safety
Speaker:guidance? You know, what are the concerns of medical
Speaker:regulators? But, you know, how can we tell a better
Speaker:story about our efficacy as well? How can we really,
Speaker:engage in this, you know, it is naturally complex.
Speaker:Herbalism, you know, is representing all of nature.
Speaker:It is not something that can be done in an elevator pitch.
Speaker:It is a, it is a detailed approach
Speaker:to the wonderful dynamic of health.
Speaker:And so how can we do a better job as a
Speaker:herbal community of telling that story through the media,
Speaker:through our clients and,
Speaker:and how can we really bring about that change that we
Speaker:want? You know, that, that's really, that's really
Speaker:pushing, pushing at the door if you like. You know, there
Speaker:is a, you could say that it's, you know,
Speaker:there is a, there is a powerful current medical paradigm, isn't there,
Speaker:that is based on more on you know,
Speaker:acute treatment and diagnostics rather than a
Speaker:personalised preventative approach. You
Speaker:know, both are needed. you know,
Speaker:I think we need to work to a more integrated plan
Speaker:in the future where
Speaker:herbalism, counselling,
Speaker:diet, exercise are all included.
Speaker:And not just because I am a herbalist
Speaker:and I love the principles and
Speaker:practise of herbalism. But herbalism really does include all those
Speaker:pieces. Herbalists are nutritionists,
Speaker:herbalists are coaches, and counsellors.
Speaker:Herbalists are lifestyle
Speaker:guides and they are
Speaker:exercise therapists. And on top of that they
Speaker:know the,
Speaker:the some of the most powerful plants in nature
Speaker:and how to combine them to help you optimise your health.
Speaker:So really is that good? You know, it really is that
Speaker:good.
Speaker:>> Simon: It takes us all the way back to the original
Speaker:Ayurvedic principles, isn't it? That, you know,
Speaker:it's, there isn't just one path,
Speaker:there's a, one therapy, there isn't one way to
Speaker:health. and in a sense what I hearing
Speaker:you say is, is that for the herbal
Speaker:world to prosper and progress,
Speaker:we should be linking ourselves to
Speaker:those who work in exercise in nature.
Speaker:You know, there's a lot of work on how important green
Speaker:spaces are and blue walks and all the rest of it.
Speaker:That seems to be a world that you're suggesting we should
Speaker:all attach to and become
Speaker:part of. So it's a bigger integration.
Speaker:You know, first we integrate and find the
Speaker:voice for the herbal world. But it sounds that what you're saying is
Speaker:that, you know, there is a bigger calling where
Speaker:we, we, we look over
Speaker:our parapet and see what other people are doing in that
Speaker:wider, nature based healing.
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Absolutely. I, I love that you're so right. It really
Speaker:is about partnerships,
Speaker:networks. You know, we've reached that time in history where it's all
Speaker:about a mycelial relationship in a way
Speaker:where through working together
Speaker:we can empower and
Speaker:educate and engage. And I
Speaker:couldn't agree with you more that we need to do a bit
Speaker:of navel gazing to reflect on where we've got to. But
Speaker:don't spend too long doing that. We need to get out
Speaker:there and share the wonder that is
Speaker:herbalism and stand up with confidence
Speaker:and with clarity and with compassion, really,
Speaker:that there is a lot of care that can be delivered
Speaker:through herbalism in a sustainable and
Speaker:an affordable and a practical way.
Speaker:>> Simon: Well, Sebastian, as we said at the beginning, you
Speaker:have translated many of these ideas into reality and
Speaker:have provided us, with a great lesson in life and
Speaker:going forward and an inspiration to what we might do.
Speaker:So thank you so much for sharing this time with
Speaker:us and your thoughts in this podcast, and
Speaker:we'll look forward to hearing more. Thank you very
Speaker:much.
Speaker:>> Sebastian: Thank you, Simon M. Great to be with you.
Speaker:You've been listening to the Herbcast, the podcast from Herbal
Speaker:Reality. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If so,
Speaker:perhaps you'd like to leave us a rating that would really help us to spread our
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